Apple's new headset ?

[shagrat]

Am 11.6.2023 um 23:43 schrieb edmuss:

Absolutely, but the price of varjo headsets is not determined by consumer needs, 10k to the type of enterprise client of which varjo deal with is nothing.  I'd hazard a guess that the 10k headset of 4 years ago is still 10k, not because the tech is still expensive but because there is a customer base that will pay it; the extra profits (from reduced tech costs) will go towards software development and subsidising the aero as a consumer product.

I bet that what is being discussed (eye tracking guessing which icon you're going to select) could be achieved with a reverb omnicept/quest pro for less than a third of the price.  The high resolution is great, but it's still using foveated rendering (like varjo have done for years), similarly hand tracking has been done by ultraleap for the last decade.  The magic comes from apples software integration of the different systems into one cohesive system.

Enterprise customers pay for a service package, including development access, support etc. The device cost is high, because there was a limited customer base at the time and production cost for smaller numbers were reflected. 

From what I've seen with this technology Apple needs to find a way to quickly add lots(!) of useful applications that benefit from the technology. Even Enterprise focused devices needed at least one or two "killer applications" that actually work and provide a real benefit to leave the prototype labs in companies. User acceptance being the next hurdle.

On the consumer side, the need for a working and thriving ecosystem is even more apparent. As Apple usually doesn't do well with "open ecosystems" I doubt we will see something like a PC link to use the Vision Pro as a VR Headset for DCS. Porting customary VR Titels to Apples Vision Pro may be key along with a good set of productivity apps that do more than just open 2D windows in VR...

Just my 2 cents.

[shagrat]

Am 12.6.2023 um 16:26 schrieb winghunter:

Apple Vision Pro beats the Varjo XR-3, and with its price point of $3500 at half the price.

 

It doesn't, as it can't connect to a VR capable PC. Not with a link cable, not with a WiFi-Streaming solution.

The XR-3 is a VR Headset with Pass-Through camera that allows for augmented reality application, but is run on a PC.

Apple's Vision Pro is a wearable computer that uses a VR capable high resolution display to run applications or augmented reality on the device itself.

There isn't really much point in trying to determine which is "better", as they are different devices. Like a sportscar convertible with two seats and a work truck with cabin and 5 seats. One is faster, one can seat more people, one can haul stuff, the other needs less room to park... What's better depends on your needs. 

Apples and Oranges... Pun intended.

 

[dburne]

1 hour ago, shagrat said:

It doesn't, as it can't connect to a VR capable PC. Not with a link cable, not with a WiFi-Streaming solution.

The XR-3 is a VR Headset with Pass-Through camera that allows for augmented reality application, but is run on a PC.

Apple's Vision Pro is a wearable computer that uses a VR capable high resolution display to run applications or augmented reality on the device itself.

There isn't really much point in trying to determine which is "better", as they are different devices. Like a sportscar convertible with two seats and a work truck with cabin and 5 seats. One is faster, one can seat more people, one can haul stuff, the other needs less room to park... What's better depends on your needs. 

Apples and Oranges... Pun intended.

 

 

Thank goodness there are some that see this for what it is. 

[Supmua]

10 hours ago, mitchelrobertson said:

My dad bought one of the first LED wrist watches for $999 in 1970s dollars.  By the time I was in HS in the 80s they sold for $5 at the checkout line of KMart, lol.

 

The real problem is that Apple doesn't understand that VR is simply a gaming device like a Joystick.  Using it for Chat or a spreadsheet is kinda dumb.  If Apple were smart they would have attracted gamers instead of shunning them.  We are a lot that spares no expense for framerate having just bought a 4090./.

 

I don't think Apple is dumb, a mega company this size would have done extensive research on this type of thing before releasing a milestone device like this.  Apple won't get into gaming, at least not officially, let alone PC market.  Apple's main strength is the existing Apple echosystem with accessories, movie/music contents and app store, plus seamless integration among their devices--they won't get that in the PC market that has lots of fragmentation with devices and apps not talking or taking advantages of each other.  It is the same thing as asking Sony to release PSVR2 headset for the PC, they won't do it as they have their own ecosystem to support themselves.  Your best bet for the next high-end VR headset would be from Pimax, Samsung, etc.  But I think VR is on its last legs and the money is on XR.  You will need some sort of XR functionality for future devices to sell.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Supmua

[winghunter]

never underestimate apple

[shagrat]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb mitchelrobertson:

The real problem is that Apple doesn't understand that VR is simply a gaming device like a Joystick.  Using it for Chat or a spreadsheet is kinda dumb.  If Apple were smart they would have attracted gamers instead of shunning them.  We are a lot that spares no expense for framerate having just bought a 4090./.

That's not the case, their not dumb. Apple simply has a different vision for VR than the average gamer and sim-enthusiast. I agree, it would have been a smart move to allow the use of the hardware as an ordinary VR headset in addition to the wearable computer concept, so gamers and especially the simulation community could make use of it. But Apple obviously doesn't care much for these ideas if they happen outside their very own ecosystem.

And despite not being a very new idea, using a VR/AR device to allow the use of multiple gigantic windows for a spreadsheet application isn't dumb, at all. That was one of the first ideas/concepts after the announcement of the prototypes that led to the first Google Glass and Hololens.

Virtual monitor stacks for things like "war rooms", "Control centers" and the like, or a mobile workplace for analysts, troubleshooting and emergencies.

There are very potent use cases for that, but they are limited to specific work tasks and environments. Problem is, Apple won't integrate well into the MS 365 environment and typical line of business applications.

 

[dburne]

4 hours ago, mitchelrobertson said:

I disagree.  Putting on a headset to see a screen is a bad idea for most things in any workplace.  I like being to be able to see the real World around me.  I cant even imagine wearing a VR headset for 8 hours straight, lol.  Im old enough to remember when there wasn't a Computer on every desk in an office, lol.  Life was a LOT better then.

 

 

Yeah until VR/MR can get to the footprint size of about a set of glasses, it will never have mass adoption. Too much friction today in using VR headsets that has to be overcome.  I will use my Aero on most every day for a few hours a day, often 4-5 hours. But breaks in between flights, I certainly would not want to wear the headset for 5 hours straight -and it is quite comfortable.

Edited June 14, 2023 by dburne

[kerlcat]

5 hours ago, mitchelrobertson said:

I disagree.  Putting on a headset to see a screen is a bad idea for most things in any workplace.  I like being to be able to see the real World around me.  I cant even imagine wearing a VR headset for 8 hours straight, lol.  Im old enough to remember when there wasn't a Computer on every desk in an office, lol.  Life was a LOT better then.

Just recall when iPhone released, so many people said it’s bad idea to remove a keyboard from a cellphone…”who wanna input on a pcs of glass? It would fail by doing so.” 

True, a tech evolution could failed to make a chance. And many more cases failed v.s. those succeeded. But it’s better to give a try or just wait for others to try out with open mind before drawing a conclusion. Or we never know what we had missed in improvement. 

[thermalguy]

On 6/1/2023 at 4:13 AM, Slippa said:

Worth noting for me as this is the first post I think I’ve read here from someone using a Mac running Bootcamp to fly DCS.

This headset doesn’t appeal to me, merely because I’m not interested in VR that much but it looks like another step forward, at another silly price. 

Funny reading from people that have already invested in VR buckets to put their heads in poo-pooing it though. Personally, I’m not looking for ‘full immersion’ so flying pancake is exactly what I had in mind before I bought my computer. I looked at as many configs as I could bear and still wanted what I bought. Lovely 5k screen too. Having DCS running on it hasn’t been too shabby, maybe not all the bells and whistles but some of us aren’t looking for them in the first place. Interesting to see what’s knocking about though and amusing when it tickles the anti-mac brigade.

I’m on a 2019 iMac, i7, RadeonPro 5700xt, 4x1tb T7ssds, more HDDs, some mice, a Warthog, MFGs, trackir5, (beating anyones goggles) a cup of coffee and I’m quite happy without my head in a bucket flailing my arms about fumbling to adjust my undercarriage and for that reason, I won’t be investing and I’m out. - Sorry, wrong channel. 

I used to run on only the MAC Pro's as I do a lot of 3D mechanical design with solidworks and the rendering needed something powerful. I will say I had two of these for over a 10 year span and at the end they both still worked like new, only thing I ever did was add a hard drive. And I always used bootcamp. But as DCS has grown I also grew out of the MAC PRO as I was told the newer ones did not support windows/bootcamp (maybe bad info) and in the last 4 years I have burned up two computers. So I will say in my experience the MAC Pro towers were built like tanks and cost about as much as a Abrams tank.

[Supmua]

Indirect positive effect of the Apple headset. 
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/samsung-revamp-its-galaxy-xr-headset-compete-apple-vision-pro-1716764

 

So we may see Samsung/Google HMD with similar screen resolution next year rather than 2K per eye, hopefully PCVR compatible not just a stand alone device.  This could potentially be the next go to headset for DCS. 

[YoYo]

Did you think that Apple is too expensive, try this  :

.just 40k $.

[winghunter]

For perspective, about 20 years ago https://www.cnet.com/culture/apples-ipod-spurs-mixed-reactions/
"Mixed reactions
Analysts offered mixed reactions to the iPod--especially to its $399 price tag."

Edited July 15, 2023 by winghunter

[RealDCSpilot]

Guy Godin from Virtual Desktop already announced that he will make VD for the Vision Pro. So it will support SteamVR and DCS sometime in the future.

[ackattacker]

4 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

Guy Godin from Virtual Desktop already announced that he will make VD for the Vision Pro. So it will support SteamVR and DCS sometime in the future.

I have no doubt that it will be eventually possible to play DCS on the Vision Pro. The Apple name means developers will focus on solutions. The real questions are whether the experience will be worth the price tag compared to the competition, given the limitations (Wifi compression, FOV, etc).

My personal opinion is that if you are reason to buy the Vision Pro *other than DCS*, and want to also play DCS, then cool. But I seriously doubt this will be the "ultimate" DCS headset...

[RealDCSpilot]

Oh, no. I have two rules: no Apple or Facebook hardware in my house! And the Vision Pro is definitely over-priced and overhyped. The only good thing about it, is the impulses it will give for other manufacturers. I'm basically waiting for the Index 2 as my next headset. Looking back, the Index was the only headset since 2016, that really brought new ideas and innovative solutions into the market when it was released.

[dburne]

12 hours ago, ackattacker said:

I have no doubt that it will be eventually possible to play DCS on the Vision Pro. The Apple name means developers will focus on solutions. The real questions are whether the experience will be worth the price tag compared to the competition, given the limitations (Wifi compression, FOV, etc).

My personal opinion is that if you are reason to buy the Vision Pro *other than DCS*, and want to also play DCS, then cool. But I seriously doubt this will be the "ultimate" DCS headset...

 

I absolutely love my VR hobby however there is not a chance in hell I would put that much money into a VR headset. My Aero is by far my limit.

[WipeUout]

6 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

The only good thing about it, is the impulses it will give for other manufacturers.

Agree, this will drive or accelerate innovation.

 

46 minutes ago, dburne said:

I absolutely love my VR hobby however there is not a chance in hell I would put that much money into a VR headset. My Aero is by far my limit.

I feel the same with my expen$ive 8kX.

But I also feel that I still do not see or experience the full capabilities of my HMD with current hardware.  There is still lots of room to improve performance and quality before even thinking to go to higher resolution HMD.  

[mrno]

I got DCS to run in AVP using ALVR.  Havent a chance to optimize, but very jittery as expected for pretty much an alpha build.  If you are not aware, here is the link and instructions.

https://github.com/alvr-org/alvr-visionos

 

[Supmua]

My two cents. Been using mine since Feb 2nd, mostly as iPad and home theater replacement . Right now it’s very new and not great for PCVR gaming.  Apple has never been big on gaming so this device is meant to be used with contents from their app stores (movies, music, productivity apps, simple games).  This may change as they seem to be sponsoring more games similar to what they did to movies and music.

The most striking aspect of this headset is the screen (3.6K x 3.2K dual micro OLED) which is what I would call pristine, good enough as a monitor replacement with no mura, true blacks, excellent contrast and brightness that can make my eyes uncomfortable in certain scenes especially from IMAX movies. 

The PCVR option via ALVR/virtual desktop is interesting but until Apple opens up the device and allows direct USB/thunderbolt connection (via their developer’s adapter or consumer kit) performance and/or image quality will probably be subpar via WiFi streaming.

[SharpeXB]

The wave of returns has hit for most people these are just too heavy it seems  

https://www.theverge.com/2024/2/14/24072792/apple-vision-pro-early-adopters-returns

[winghunter]

Meh, this isn't any different for any other headset. Just less media attention.

[SharpeXB]

46 minutes ago, winghunter said:

Meh, this isn't any different for any other headset. Just less media attention.

Yeah for a VR enthusiast perhaps not. But the consensus of average users is that it’s too heavy. It weighs as much as a 13” iPad Pro on your face. 

[Obic]

I Tried one 
It's the most Idiotic and useless Piece of hardware, I've ever seen.
 

[Dogmanbird]

i reckon by the time it's fully working as envisioned, some other headsets will have caught up / new comparable models released. It's probably unfortunate for apple that they couldn't get it released 6 months earlier.  Quest now supporting spacial video might steal some of the market. I wonder if apple will cripple the support on competitors headsets somehow?

for me, the q3 is too already heavy, especially with the stock head strap. I can't imagine wearing 650 + grams with just a band around the head for lengthy periods, regardless of the facial padding and stock strap design  

@supmua - how does the weight feel compared to your Q2 or other headsets? thanks for the feedback on it

[SharpeXB]

So how many people struggled with the idea of returning their first iPhone or Mac? An original Mac cost $7,000 and yet I wonder how many of those people took back

https://www.cultofmac.com/846697/return-vision-pro/

The problem with wearables is you have to wear them. A Fitbit or smart watch is probably the only thing people will actually want to wear. Even if these were as unobtrusive as a pair of glasses, people probably don't like wearing glasses enough to wear it. 

Edited February 17 by SharpeXB