Important buildings are missing for nav, sometimes incorrectly used building type, quality lower in compare with UGRA

[Magot]

Hi,

We got a little used to the very high quality of the maps from Ugra in terms of the accuracy of the location of important buildings, which are important in the flight simulator for visual navigation as navigation points.
But also for the beauty and uniqueness of each map.
Unfortunately, OnReTech failed on this point. He made a very nice map, but very generic and quite inaccurate.
For example, a small town in Israel in the Negev, Mitze Ramon, has the buildings of a big city, yet it is a small provincial town with a development of small houses. So the design of the small town in the desert is inaccurate in terms of the use of buildings.
And that's unfortunately the case with almost the entire map.

[Agg]

I'm sure more landmarks and unique buildings will get added as development progresses.

[Leviathan667]

I’ve tested the map above central sinai and it looks great. There are though very few human settlements in the area

[Magot]

yes, great and nice but wrong, looks like a different country

in the canyon, the IAF air force tests low flights, here the canyon is less often missing or vaguely created

 

Jerusalem in Sinai map is defacto a completely different city, which no one knows.
But OnReTech did not use one generic will for the old town there, not counting the absence of practically all monuments.
I don't see a problem with using generic buildings, but the correct buildings need to be used.
Ugra has shown that it is possible.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Magot

[Thamiel]

Yeah, got that too. Doing some sightseeing in southern Israel yesterday as a first look at the new map I couldn't recognize Jerusalem at all. I had to double check the F10 map to verify that the settlements beneath me are indeed meant to represent the temple mount and a divided city. Gaza was recognizable though.

Dont get me wrong, Cairo looks great, but there are more landmarks in this region than 8 big pyramids.

[cfrag]

Agreed - Jerusalem is missing at least the Temple Mount (well, it's seemingly a shipping center with trucks being loaded) and the old City Walls are MIA. Massada is missing completely as are other sights I was hoping for (not to mention the fact that ED's map tech currently prevents a realistic depiction of the dead sea, no elevation below 0 can be anything but water, so this is not OnReTech's fault).

Since this is the initial release, and having seen ORT's quick and positive responses to our comments, I'm inclined to believe that ORT will continue to evolve and improve the map, and our feedback may help to make this great map even greater  

 

[Hiob]

May it be, that Jerusalem wasn’t recreated on purpose? Would make sense to me.

[Thamiel]

I dont think so. There are more politically and/or military disputed areas modelled in dcs maps.

I can understand that you check the map against feedback of the community before you add details and subsequently performance requirements.

But to ignore the fortress of Masada is something completely different. Its not a set of unique buildings but a very characteristically shaped mountain plateau at the west coast of the dead sea. In the air, it should be recognizable without a second glance. It cant be that expensive in performance terms to model a mountain top like a big rhombus and place it at the correct spot.

[Hiob]

21 minutes ago, Thamiel said:

I dont think so. There are more politically and/or military disputed areas modelled in dcs maps.

True. But Jerusalem is the center of the three big mono theistic religions. Arguably the most delicate POI imaginable.

I wouldn’t mind, I‘m atheistic af, but it would make sense to me to at least consider it.

Don‘t know.

[Thamiel]

I know what you mean - dont encourage people to flood the net with videos how to bomb the sacred places of the big 3 while cultural background music provokes strict intentions how those images should be interpreted.

In the end, its a war game. Things are going boom. I applaud ORT for their courage to add this specific region to the dcs portfolio but in doing so, I would suspect that they did answer the beforementioned questions in the first place, at least for themselves. Otherwise, its just "we want to, but we dont dare to." 

In any event, I think the map looks very promising and a solid debut to DCS. I have seen roll-outs with far less substance.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Thamiel

[OnReTech]

4 hours ago, Magot said:

Hi,

We got a little used to the very high quality of the maps from Ugra in terms of the accuracy of the location of important buildings, which are important in the flight simulator for visual navigation as navigation points.
But also for the beauty and uniqueness of each map.
Unfortunately, OnReTech failed on this point. He made a very nice map, but very generic and quite inaccurate.
For example, a small town in Israel in the Negev, Mitze Ramon, has the buildings of a big city, yet it is a small provincial town with a development of small houses. So the design of the small town in the desert is inaccurate in terms of the use of buildings.
And that's unfortunately the case with almost the entire map.

Yes, I absolutely agree. Initially, we did not plan to make Haifa and northern Israel in high detail. And they did not plan to make the Ramat David airport.

But we read the reviews and there is already a plan on how to improve Israel and what needs to be added there.

Thanks for the feedback!

[sirrah]

19 minutes ago, OnReTech said:

Yes, I absolutely agree. Initially, we did not plan to make Haifa and northern Israel in high detail. And they did not plan to make the Ramat David airport.

But we read the reviews and there is already a plan on how to improve Israel and what needs to be added there.

Thanks for the feedback!

First off, congrats on your Sinai map launch!

I haven't explored very extensively just yet, but I noticed quite an obvious line where Sinai map stops in detail (Haifa being pretty much an exception) and where Syria map begins.

Are there any (perhaps far away) thoughts on how to somehow combine Sinai with the Syria map? Or is this absolutely impossible now and in the future for technical reasons (other than just lack of currently available hardware performance)? I mean, has this subject even been discussed with either Ugra and/or ED?

It looks as if you purposely stopped where Ugra Syria begins in order to at some point merge both maps. (which makes perfect sense to me btw. It would be kinda bonkers to re-design/develop all those parts of Israel and Syria that Ugra already created).

 

 

[Diesel_Thunder]

I'm impressed so far in the sightseeing flight I did yesterday in Israel. Great performance (90-130 FPS in MT) and good RAM utilization at around 27 GB. For comparison, Syria pushes my RAM utilization into the low 40's.

I'm glad to see that Israel will get developed further. I have limited knowledge of the region but when I saw Jerusalem on the map and flew over, I looked for the Dome of the Rock which is a very prominent landmark, and didn't see it. Hopefully gets added later as well

Edited June 9, 2023 by Diesel_Thunder

[OnReTech]

6 minutes ago, sirrah said:

First off, congrats on your Sinai map launch!

I haven't explored very extensively just yet, but I noticed quite an obvious line where Sinai map stops in detail (Haifa being pretty much an exception) and where Syria map begins.

Are there any (perhaps far away) thoughts on how to somehow combine Sinai with the Syria map? Or is this absolutely impossible now and in the future for technical reasons (other than just lack of currently available hardware performance)? I mean, has this subject even been discussed with either Ugra and/or ED?

It looks as if you purposely stopped where Ugra Syria begins in order to at some point merge both maps. (which makes perfect sense to me btw. It would be kinda bonkers to re-design/develop all those parts of Israel and Syria that Ugra already created).

I know the technical part very well, in theory it is possible with some refinement of the TDC. I have never raised this issue with either Ugra or ED.

There are a lot of similar comments, so I think that we will return to this issue. Thank you

4 minutes ago, Diesel_Thunder said:

I'm impressed so far in the sightseeing flight I did yesterday in Israel. Great performance (90-130 FPS in MT) and good RAM utilization at around 27 GB. For comparison, Syria pushes my RAM utilization into the low 40's.

I'm glad to see that Israel will get developed further. I have limited knowledge of the region but when I saw Jerusalem on the map and flew over, I looked for the Dome of the Rock which is a very prominent landmark, and didn't see it. Hopefully gets added later as well

 

There is still a lot of work in Jerusalem, I agree that this is not even Jerusalem. But plans change and we decided to finalize it in the future. Thank you

[Magot]

40 minutes ago, OnReTech said:

Yes, I absolutely agree. Initially, we did not plan to make Haifa and northern Israel in high detail. And they did not plan to make the Ramat David airport.

But we read the reviews and there is already a plan on how to improve Israel and what needs to be added there.

Thanks for the feedback!

Sounds good! Don't forget Masada fortress, as the guys above mentioned. Thanks much 

[Draken35]

5 hours ago, Magot said:

yes, great and nice but wrong, looks like a different country

in the canyon, the IAF air force tests low flights, here the canyon is less often missing or vaguely created

 

Jerusalem in Sinai map is defacto a completely different city, which no one knows.
But OnReTech did not use one generic will for the old town there, not counting the absence of practically all monuments.
I don't see a problem with using generic buildings, but the correct buildings need to be used.
Ugra has shown that it is possible.

 

Off topic, sorry. Would you mind posting coordinates or a map of this valley please?

[Magot]

It's Ramon crater

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makhtesh_Ramon
Ramon on the map

Edited June 9, 2023 by Magot

[Draken35]

Thank you!

[Outlaw24]

On 6/9/2023 at 11:48 AM, OnReTech said:

On 6/9/2023 at 11:41 AM, sirrah said:

First off, congrats on your Sinai map launch!

I haven't explored very extensively just yet, but I noticed quite an obvious line where Sinai map stops in detail (Haifa being pretty much an exception) and where Syria map begins.

Are there any (perhaps far away) thoughts on how to somehow combine Sinai with the Syria map? Or is this absolutely impossible now and in the future for technical reasons (other than just lack of currently available hardware performance)? I mean, has this subject even been discussed with either Ugra and/or ED?

It looks as if you purposely stopped where Ugra Syria begins in order to at some point merge both maps. (which makes perfect sense to me btw. It would be kinda bonkers to re-design/develop all those parts of Israel and Syria that Ugra already created).

I know the technical part very well, in theory it is possible with some refinement of the TDC. I have never raised this issue with either Ugra or ED.

There are a lot of similar comments, so I think that we will return to this issue. Thank you

This would be an outstanding idea if both of these maps could be combined some how. I think it would be worthy of a conversation between the parties involved.

Edited June 11, 2023 by Outlaw24

[BombSquad2336]

6 hours ago, cfrag said:

Agreed - Jerusalem is missing at least the Temple Mount (well, it's seemingly a shipping center with trucks being loaded) and the old City Walls are MIA. Massada is missing completely as are other sights I was hoping for (not to mention the fact that ED's map tech currently prevents a realistic depiction of the dead sea, no elevation below 0 can be anything but water, so this is not OnReTech's fault).

Since this is the initial release, and having seen ORT's quick and positive responses to our comments, I'm inclined to believe that ORT will continue to evolve and improve the map, and our feedback may help to make this great map even greater  

 

This was a major disappointment to me. It is my sincere hope that the old city of Jerusalem and the temple mount will be added in short order. Kind of a shame in my opinion; releasing this map without taking care of Jerusalem properly.

2 hours ago, OnReTech said:

There is still a lot of work in Jerusalem, I agree that this is not even Jerusalem. But plans change and we decided to finalize it in the future. Thank you

Any chance we can get an approximate time frame on that?

[OnReTech]

5 minutes ago, BombSquad2336 said:

This was a major disappointment to me. It is my sincere hope that the old city of Jerusalem and the temple mount will be added in short order. Kind of a shame in my opinion; releasing this map without taking care of Jerusalem properly.

Any chance we can get an approximate time frame on that?

next week I will post a roadmap of improvements as I am currently gathering feedback and the list is constantly growing. Do not forget that this is EA and there is still time before the release.

[BombSquad2336]

Just now, OnReTech said:

next week I will post a roadmap of improvements as I am currently gathering feedback and the list is constantly growing. Do not forget that this is EA and there is still time before the release.

Thank you for the response. I will look forward to the roadmap.

[Thamiel]

Dont take it personally. The community is primed by ED and 3rd party developers towards patches, fixes and add-ons coming in years instead of months, if at all. Asking for a time frame is merely a feeble attempt to give you the chance to be different for a change. We know this is EA and the map is out for one day. Have a nice weekend. Good effort so far.

[Zone5]

First off, congratulations to OnReTech on the launch. I have been waiting for this for a long while.

It is clear that it is still truly "early access", but it looks very good. I expect it will only get better. Great work, guys, and please keep it up!

[cfrag]

15 hours ago, OnReTech said:

next week I will post a roadmap of improvements as I am currently gathering feedback

That would be most welcome. A word of caution, though: by doing so you will 

a) be worshipped like a god in these forums and

b) put ED and most of their partners in a very uncomfortable place 

I'm really looking forward to that roadmap - IMHO, it's one of these things that helps me to tell the pros from the tyros.