Review from a real warbird pilot (please fix the pilot modelling)

[motoadve]

Real pilot, flight sim enthusiast for 30 years, beta tester for some of them, real pilot, 3,000hrs fly often in the backcountry, and off airport, also a warbird in which I do aerobatics and dogfight simulations. 

DCS WWII planes are amazing, they feel realistic, the landings , the take offs, stalls, the feel of flight is there, wake turbulence is spot ON, damage model is very detailed , quite impressive really, some stuff might need a bit of tuning, but overall great.

All of this amazing effort goes down the drain when playing in MP and  the plane in front of you starts to jink up and down positive Gs , Negatives Gs and lots of impossible aerobatics like a super human, because he even does not get tired, and can perform this stunts forever, once this happens DCS WWII feels and looks very arcade, have you ever seen this kind of maneuvers in WWII gun cam footage? Not even close.

If developers can fix this , DCS WWII would become an amazing simulator, the other sim got it quite good (only thing that it beats DCS IMHO).

Its my only real complain, but it really ruins immersion, the rest of the sim its really amazing.

Edited June 19, 2023 by motoadve

[peachmonkey]

yup, stick pumping is a serious immersion killer for sure.

[Hobel]

Agree in principle, but do you have some examples track/video so we are all talking about the same situation?

Because we are also talking about MP situation,And mp observations are always such a thing..

there I have also seen similar maneuvers

But when I try to recreate them and want to pull strong negative G my pilot immediately goes into black out.

So?

[SharpeXB]

I get the impression that DCS doesn’t model the control forces, in fact to fly realistically and not snap into a spin or whatever I find myself pretending that those forces are there. But if anyone wants to ignore that in the game there’s nothing stopping them short of losing control or breaking the plane. In MP that’s bound to be the case. 

[Hobel]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb SharpeXB:

I get the impression that DCS doesn’t model the control forces, in fact to fly realistically and not snap into a spin or whatever I find myself pretending that those forces are there. But if anyone wants to ignore that in the game there’s nothing stopping them short of losing control or breaking the plane. In MP that’s bound to be the case. 

What do you mean exactly?   In the Bf109 k4, for example, you can observe very well that the inputs become more limited the faster you fly.

[SharpeXB]

36 minutes ago, Hobel said:

What do you mean exactly?   In the Bf109 k4, for example, you can observe very well that the inputs become more limited the faster you fly.

Oh that’s good. I haven’t tried the 109 in a long time. What about the Spitfire? It feels like you can flop the plane around a lot more than might be realistic. Like you have super human strength on the stick. 

[grafspee]

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Oh that’s good. I haven’t tried the 109 in a long time. What about the Spitfire? It feels like you can flop the plane around a lot more than might be realistic. Like you have super human strength on the stick. 

All allied planes like P-51, Spitfire, P-47 has relative low stick force per G, P-51 in particular which is equipped with device which counter reacts pilot's elevator inputs, so no problem with pulling out of the dive in terms of stick forces. Stick travel for same G is way shorter at high speed but force required to do it is pretty much the same in case those planes, P-47 had compressibility problems which makes elevator completely ineffective but this is not modelled in DCS so far.

Early P-51 suffer from compressibility as well but it was fixed by the time D model appeared. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by grafspee

[motoadve]

3 hours ago, Hobel said:

Agree in principle, but do you have some examples track/video so we are all talking about the same situation?

Because we are also talking about MP situation,And mp observations are always such a thing..

there I have also seen similar maneuvers

But when I try to recreate them and want to pull strong negative G my pilot immediately goes into black out.

So?

Here is a video showing how arcade and ridiculous does it looks when someone tries to evade you using this tactics in MP.

Positive Gs followed by negative Gs and nothing happens, even if done continuously, pilot never gets tired and can do this forever.

All the fantastic FM fidelity wasted with the very simple DCS pilot modelling, which makes MP flying feel arcade.

People say DCS AI cheats, the DCS pilot modeling's allows this kind of unrealistic maneuvering, sadly fighting AI looks and feels more realistic, than fighting humans in DCS

Have anyone ever seen this kind of maneuvering in real WWII gun cam footage? Not even close.

 

 

[kablamoman]

I agree it looks awful.

I am curious, though, if somebody more knowledgeable could weigh in on the kind of stresses imposed on critical structures by these kinds of rapid positive to negative elevator deflections. One would think the rapid alternating deflections would impose stresses above and beyond just a simple sustained deflection, and potentially even be in excess of design loads, even though the overall G experienced by player may technically still be within limits.

Similar to that one airline incident where the pilots overstressed and snapped off their entire vertical stabilizer: Even though they were technically below critical maneuvering speeds, the excessive alternating rudder input imposed extreme loads that weren't accounted for in the original design parameters (link).

Is this kind of failure mode also applicable to the Spitfire example above? If so, maybe it's an oversight in the modeling that gets exposed by the fact that players are not subjected to the kind of discomfort somebody would obviously feel from this in real life, as OP correctly points out.

Perhaps a more robust player g model would prevent this, but perhaps not entirely (people still wobble in that other sim, last I checked, if not as egregiously). But I think if people started ripping their tails off with such careless handling, the behavior would cease pretty quickly for sure.

Edited June 20, 2023 by kablamoman

[motoadve]

10 minutes ago, kablamoman said:

Perhaps a more robust player g model would prevent this, but perhaps not entirely (people still wobble in that other sim, last I checked, if not as egregiously). But I think if people started ripping their tails off with such careless handling, the behavior would cease pretty quickly for sure.

Most likely pilot will be incapacitated before breaking wings or airframe.

Pilot G modelling really needs attention to complement the detailed work they put on the warbirds.

[Skewgear]

Just been watching someone on the PO server in a Spitfire trying to shake off a 109. F2 view G meter registered more than 9G, then -2, then +6, all in the time it takes to read the sentence.

It's a bit immersion-breaking.

[Hobel]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb motoadve:

Positive Gs followed by negative Gs and nothing happens, even if done continuously, pilot never gets tired and can do this forever.

thanks for your input
as far as I have seen it in your video you have once for a very short time ~-4 G pulled the rest was rather -2-3.5 and that also always quite short, as far as I know a man can withstand for short time so many negative G and in this example the time span is nowmal very short, so basically would these values a Pilot can withstand.

To what extent should Pilot be the limiting factor here and is he the only factor or are there more?
I mean what you show in your video is not more burden than what this womans has to endure here and she puts it away without any problems.

vor 5 Stunden schrieb motoadve:

Have anyone ever seen this kind of maneuvering in real WWII gun cam footage? Not even close.

never, because i think other factors play a role, for example in reality you can't throw the stick around as fast as in DCS, i mean you should know best, can you do this here what i show in the video in reality? some people exploit this weakness in DCS in this way

And what about the possible loss of control, especially if you have wing damage and are more likely to stall with such broken wings?

 

 

I think @kablamomanapproach is not so wrong, a rapid change from positive G to negative and vice versa could lead to sudden overload spikes that could cause damage.

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Hobel

[motoadve]

1 hour ago, Hobel said:

thanks for your input
as far as I have seen it in your video you have once for a very short time ~-4 G pulled the rest was rather -2-3.5 and that also always quite short, as far as I know a man can withstand for short time so many negative G and in this example the time span is nowmal very short, so basically would these values a Pilot can withstand.

To what extent should Pilot be the limiting factor here and is he the only factor or are there more?
I mean what you show in your video is not more burden than what this womans has to endure here and she puts it away without any problems.

never, because i think other factors play a role, for example in reality you can't throw the stick around as fast as in DCS, i mean you should know best, can you do this here what i show in the video in reality? some people exploit this weakness in DCS in this way

And what about the possible loss of control, especially if you have wing damage and are more likely to stall with such broken wings?

 

 

I think @kablamomanapproach is not so wrong, a rapid change from positive G to negative and vice versa could lead to sudden overload spikes that could cause damage.

 

 

Those are competition aerobatic planes, which are made for this.

If we look at all the gun cam footage available from WWII I can assure you we wont see a single airplane doing this kind of violent maneuvers, other weights, other speeds, airframe and pilot limitations .

This is why it  looks very unrealistic and gives an arcade feel to see this in MP.

To sum it up, IMHO this DCS warbirds are a digital work of art, with an arcade pilot modelled.

Hope we get the pilot model this planes deserve.

Edited June 21, 2023 by motoadve

[grafspee]

4 hours ago, motoadve said:

If we look at all the gun cam footage available from WWII I can assure you we wont see a single airplane doing this kind of violent maneuvers, other weights, other speeds, airframe and pilot limitations .

 

Lack of WWII gun footage could be proof that jinking so hard saved your ass  Because everyone who stand still while being chased got shot down and every one who jinked all over the place didn't get shoot down and didn't end up on gun footage.

Anyway i still agree that WWII DCS pilots have too much G resistance and some kind fatigue system should be implemented.

[Hobel]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb motoadve:

Those are competition aerobatic planes, which are made for this.

Yes, but the discussion was also about whether the pilot can withstand such forces in the first place, the videos I listed refer exactly to this aspect, so what kind of aircraft it is does not matter for now, and from the looks of it, pilots can withstand these forces

vor 6 Stunden schrieb motoadve:

you we wont see a single airplane doing this kind of violent maneuvers, other weights, other speeds, airframe and pilot limitations

That's why I was talking about other factors that play a role in it

Edited June 21, 2023 by Hobel

[motoadve]

5 hours ago, Hobel said:

Yes, but the discussion was also about whether the pilot can withstand such forces in the first place, the videos I listed refer exactly to this aspect, so what kind of aircraft it is does not matter for now, and from the looks of it, pilots can withstand these forces

This pilots are training exclusively for this, do it constantly,  those are pre determined routines,  in planes made for this so they can get  away with it, only  if very well trained, we loose some of this aerobatic pilots every year due to loss of control, incapacitation, airframe breakup etc.

Have not seen any WWII training videos were a pilot train like this, in DCS we can do this in the game get away with it, and looks horrible.

[NineLine]

21 hours ago, motoadve said:

Here is a video showing how arcade and ridiculous does it looks when someone tries to evade you using this tactics in MP.

Positive Gs followed by negative Gs and nothing happens, even if done continuously, pilot never gets tired and can do this forever.

All the fantastic FM fidelity wasted with the very simple DCS pilot modelling, which makes MP flying feel arcade.

People say DCS AI cheats, the DCS pilot modeling's allows this kind of unrealistic maneuvering, sadly fighting AI looks and feels more realistic, than fighting humans in DCS

Have anyone ever seen this kind of maneuvering in real WWII gun cam footage? Not even close.

 

 

I agree these are some weird moves, but I'm not sure how I see a user avoiding hits using this.

The topic of pilot fatigue has been around for some time, the argument is that putting limits on a virtual pilot might be seen as immersive to some, but immersion-breaking to others, as well as what do we pick, a weak pilot, a moderately strong pilot, a bodybuilder? We do have G fatigue right now, in that as you load more Gs, the less you can withstand. But it's not perfect either. 

Also, this is a constant battle, especially when you get into competitive MP gameplay, people hunt and search for that little trick to make themselves a little better than the next guy. 

G modelling needs improvements over the entire sim, and is planned. 

18 hours ago, Skewgear said:

Just been watching someone on the PO server in a Spitfire trying to shake off a 109. F2 view G meter registered more than 9G, then -2, then +6, all in the time it takes to read the sentence.

It's a bit immersion-breaking.

Make a track of it and I will have it checked out, should be easy to reproduce if that is what you saw. 

[SharpeXB]

21 hours ago, motoadve said:

Here is a video showing how arcade and ridiculous does it looks when someone tries to evade you using this tactics in MP.

Positive Gs followed by negative Gs and nothing happens, even if done continuously, pilot never gets tired and can do this forever.

All the fantastic FM fidelity wasted with the very simple DCS pilot modelling, which makes MP flying feel arcade.

People say DCS AI cheats, the DCS pilot modeling's allows this kind of unrealistic maneuvering, sadly fighting AI looks and feels more realistic, than fighting humans in DCS

Have anyone ever seen this kind of maneuvering in real WWII gun cam footage? Not even close.

 

 

Yeah, that’s why I feel forces aren’t modeled and just pretend they’re real in order not to do this myself. 

[NineLine]

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah, that’s why I feel forces aren’t modeled and just pretend they’re real in order not to do this myself. 

Depending on the aircraft, the Spitfire is very twitchy like this (I did try reporting the Spit long ago when I was told by Mr Grey that the Spitfire is this sensitive, and what it would do to your body is another issue altogether, freezing of controls and such under speed etc is modelled. As I explained above, modelling pilot strength is another issue. 

[SharpeXB]

19 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Depending on the aircraft, the Spitfire is very twitchy like this (I did try reporting the Spit long ago when I was told by Mr Grey that the Spitfire is this sensitive, and what it would do to your body is another issue altogether, freezing of controls and such under speed etc is modelled. As I explained above, modelling pilot strength is another issue. 

Oh I’m sure it is. It’s like you just need to think about moving the controls instead of actually moving them. 

15 hours ago, motoadve said:

This is why it  looks very unrealistic and gives an arcade feel to see this in MP.

Despite this being a sim, MP is still an online video game and that’s how people behave. Not much you can do about it. DCS really isn’t a MP focused game IMO anyways, there are so many other exploits and such. If DCS had a more serious focus on MP it would require much more attention to things like this. 

[peachmonkey]

43 minutes ago, NineLine said:

? We do have G fatigue right now, in that as you load more Gs, the less you can withstand. But it's not perfect either. 
 

thank you for the input, @NineLine, do you know if the currently implemented G fatigue is cumulative? I.e. the more frequently you're pulling G's the more tired the pilot becomes?

Edited June 21, 2023 by peachmonkey

[Raisuli]

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

Also, this is a constant battle, especially when you get into competitive MP gameplay, people hunt and search for that little trick to make themselves a little better than the next guy. 

 

This is not all that much different than pulling the paddle switch in the -18.  Some people game the game, some people play the game.  It's hard to draw a line and say 'everyone will play this game my way'.  There's a very popular Youtube content creator who keeps a rubber band around the F-18 paddle switch and doesn't think twice about doing things that nobody does out where the atmosphere hits the airfoil.  If it works in game they're game to use it.

Stick stirring has been around as long as combat flight simulators; I ran into it when Warbirds started in the mid 90s, and so far a lot of very smart people have utterly failed to put an end to it.  Anything you do risks pushing that 'you will play the game my way' line.  Is it annoying?  Always has been, and I don't expect that to change.  Add it to the list of differences between real life and video games.

And, really, it's hard to distinguish between 'ham fisted' and 'stick stirring' from the outside.  As an experienced pilot I suspect you have a much better feel for aircraft control than someone who's never been there or done that and only has a joystick sitting on the desk to gauge inputs. 

[NineLine]

1 hour ago, peachmonkey said:

thank you for the input, @NineLine, do you know if the currently implemented G fatigue is cumulative? I.e. the more frequently you're pulling G's the more tired the pilot becomes?

 

Yes I believe that is the way it should work, as I said though it is scheduled to be worked on so how well it works now might not be as expected. One thing I need to check is if G warmup works in warbirds, just thought I have never checked. 

[Doughguy]

Well im pretty sure one can code lines to detect, how often wild manouvering happens and add "fatigue" if forms of control inputs getting stiffer/delayed, blackouts /red outs occur faster and become stronger/longer and one has to enter a cool down time, just like machine guns have a modeled fatigue.

of course we cannot model a persons physique, as all that is individual, but its definately possible to add limits.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Doughguy

[Mogster]

On 6/21/2023 at 6:14 PM, SharpeXB said:

Oh I’m sure it is. It’s like you just need to think about moving the controls instead of actually moving them. 

Despite this being a sim, MP is still an online video game and that’s how people behave. Not much you can do about it. DCS really isn’t a MP focused game IMO anyways, there are so many other exploits and such. If DCS had a more serious focus on MP it would require much more attention to things like this. 

Yes. Unfortunately you can’t make people behave in a realistic manner while playing a video game. This is one reason I mostly prefer offline to online, the way people fly, drive, walk or run in games/sims as opposed to real life is a total immersion killer.