Dogfight: F-15C v.s. F-15E

[scommander2]

A dumb question:

Which model C or E provides a better dogfight?

[LordOrion]

The C.

The E dogfights like a fat cow sunk in the mud.

[Burt]

Definitely C in sim and IRL. 

[av8orDave]

On the E, the conformal fuel tanks add a ton of drag and weight. There is a good episode of the 10 Percent True podcast by Steve Davies where he interviews a real-world F-15E pilot named Stinger (it is the 4th episode of a series with him) where he talks about BFM in the E, and long story short, it is not a BFM machine. He states that "the Strike Eagle has never met a knot it can't lose" and that if you find yourself in a dogfight, you basically get one good pull to get the nose on the enemy, and that after that it is time to think about options to exit the fight. It's worth a listen.

[scommander2]

Thanks for all replies to explain in short.

It sounds F-15E just stays BVR (maybe WVR) but not dogfight because it is a weapon truck, it maybe needs other companies (likes F-16, F-35, F-22) to perform CAS?!  

 

[ASAP]

Based on my one conversation with a strike pilot... "There's never been a knot of airspeed the Strike Eagle couldn't bleed" or something to that effect. It was designed to be a bomb truck that can self escort with an amazing radar and excellent BVR capability. Not designed to get into a turning fight.

[bfr]

On 6/27/2023 at 2:23 PM, davidrbarnette said:

On the E, the conformal fuel tanks add a ton of drag and weight. There is a good episode of the 10 Percent True podcast by Steve Davies where he interviews a real-world F-15E pilot named Stinger (it is the 4th episode of a series with him) where he talks about BFM in the E, and long story short, it is not a BFM machine. He states that "the Strike Eagle has never met a knot it can't lose" and that if you find yourself in a dogfight, you basically get one good pull to get the nose on the enemy, and that after that it is time to think about options to exit the fight. It's worth a listen.

Having had my first play at dogfighting last night then that seems pretty accurate.  Set up a scenario with 40% fuel and AA weapons only against a competent Mig-21, ran it a few times and if I didn't nail them in the first minute or so then it was going to end as a stalemate/who had most gas left at best. Once you'd bled speed down to around 200kts it was very hard to get energy back without basically exiting the fight and then coming back in.  It actually felt better trying to fight in the vertical than a turning fight.

One other thing with having being spoilt a bit with the Hornet and Viper is I also forgot just how bad AIM-9Ms are in terms of countermeasure resistance in comparison to the AIM-9X.

Edited July 3, 2023 by bfr

[some1]

36 minutes ago, bfr said:

Set up a scenario with 40% fuel and AA weapons only against a competent Mig-21

If by "competent" you mean "AI", be aware that AI in DCS can sustain significantly more g's than player controlled aircraft. F-15E is a poor dogfighter, but not that poor to be easily out turned by MiG-21. 

Btw, fun fact, F-15E with 40% gas carries the same amount of fuel as F-16 with 100% internal AND a centerline fuel tank.

[bfr]

30 minutes ago, some1 said:

If by "competent" you mean "AI", be aware that AI in DCS can sustain significantly more g's than player controlled aircraft. F-15E is a poor dogfighter, but not that poor to be easily out turned by MiG-21. 

Btw, fun fact, F-15E with 40% gas carries the same amount of fuel as F-16 with 100% internal AND a centerline fuel tank.

Yeah it was an AI jet on 'Veteran' and i'm aware that also means 'superhuman'.  I could more or less stay with it (hence a lot of the time it ended up as a stalemate) but not out-turn it enough to get a decent enough aspect for a kill. The only times I actually lost I usually screwed up something to give them a chance to get on my six.

And yes, I might repeat the same scenario with less fuel again (first pass I forgot to reduce fuel and with 100% gas then things went REALLY badly).  Either way, the assertion that the F-15E isn't great in a turning fight seems reasonable based on experiences to date.

[hotrod525]

Might be a dumb question but;

How in hell, the F15EX can dogfight if the F15E can't. New airframe ? FBW ?

[av8orDave]

41 minutes ago, hotrod525 said:

Might be a dumb question but;

How in hell, the F15EX can dogfight if the F15E can't. New airframe ? FBW ?

A few answers:

- It was reported that the first operational EXs won’t receive conformal fuel tanks, so they will not have the weight and drag of an F-15E.

- It isn’t planned to be a “dogfighter.” Like the F-15E, it will use its advanced radar to prevent turning fights and all-aspect off-boresight missiles if it gets into a turning fight.

[dorianR666]

47 minutes ago, hotrod525 said:

How in hell, the F15EX can dogfight

dogfighting is dead in 2023

[Cab]

1 minute ago, dorianR666 said:

dogfighting is dead in 2023

You say that, and from a technology perspective it might even be true in an all-out war, but "peacetime" ROE's can still result in WVR engagements. 

[av8orDave]

4 hours ago, dorianR666 said:

dogfighting is dead in 2023

 

4 hours ago, Cab said:

You say that, and from a technology perspective it might even be true in an all-out war, but "peacetime" ROE's can still result in WVR engagements. 

Another interesting point that was brought up on Steve Davies’s podcast with the F-15E pilot (Stinger) is that the classic “rate / radius” conversations have basically been superseded in the era of helmet-cued weapons, and that the conversation is now getting the aircraft into weapons parameters as quickly as possible and keeping it there. It’s a very different era of WVR/dogfighting. 

[PharaohSteve]

At least in sim the F15C vs F15E is a fun fight, I was surprised I was able to pull out a few kills. We ended up at the ground quite often.

[GGTharos]

You just had bad opponents.

On 6/27/2023 at 10:03 AM, scommander2 said:

Thanks for all replies to explain in short.

It sounds F-15E just stays BVR (maybe WVR) but not dogfight because it is a weapon truck, it maybe needs other companies (likes F-16, F-35, F-22) to perform CAS?!  

 

Not either.   The F-15E's air to air capabilities can deal with low threat opposition, but I imagine all that is happening when air superiority has already been gained.  Basically if you're thinking of the F-15E as some form of swing role figher, stop thinking of it that way.  The DCS world, especially typical MP which is highly disorganized and there's really no air superiority is a bit different and doesn't represent IRL warfare.

[falcon_120]

it maybe needs other companies (likes F-16, F-35, F-22) to perform CAS?!  
 

Well I wouldn't say that as when thinking in a A10c.

The F15E definetely can hold it's ground in a contested airspace as it has:

-the stick(120c) and radar to hit you before you come close
-the speed to get away if jumped
And not now but soon:
-JTIDS to have a battles pace picture of baddies coming it's way.
-Aim9x to make you pay if you dare to underestimate it close.


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[PharaohSteve]

Do only the EX have the HMDs?

[GGTharos]

F-15Es have them too, but you have to have a recent enough upgrade.

[scommander2]

Thanks for all posts.

The advantage about F-15EX is to carry more AA missiles compared with F-15E.  Therefore, I think (hope I am right) that F-15EX is still good for BVR or WVR but not for dogflight.

Will Razbam extend F-15E project to F-15EX? it will be great ....

 

 

[GGTharos]

No, the advantage of the EX is a new fuselage and new equipment.  The number of missiles doesn't matter that much since those aircraft won't be able to perform BVR on the level of the F-22 or F-15C, or probably not even on the level of the F-35.

The F-15EX is very broadly speaking a replacement for the aging F-15E airframes.

Edited July 6, 2023 by GGTharos

[falcon_120]

I would say that the F15EX will be a huge BVR platform, but not in the sense of the classical BVR concept most people have. We are now entering a realm of BVR where sensors are more relevant that pure kinetics and maneuverability.

The F15ex has all the known advantages in AESA radars including Electronic attack cappabilities, it will simply try to blind enemy fighters, it will have a massive detection range thanks to higher output power and latest AESA developments, it will have a super advance Self protection suite, it has massive processing power compared to legacy platform, letting her act as a sensor fusion platform, and finally it has very very good shiny new engines, so the kinectic are defintely there, just not the most important aspect IMHO.




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[hotrod525]

On 7/3/2023 at 8:46 AM, dorianR666 said:

dogfighting is dead in 2023

Yeah until it's not. We should remember military error and try not to remake them all over again.

[falcon_120]

Yeah until it's not. We should remember military error and try not to remake them all over again.

Indeed, but we should not forget either what current missiles turning capabilities are nowadays, they are really eyewatering. So its a case of train as if you need it, but if they fire at you one of those beasts its over.

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[hotrod525]

6 hours ago, falcon_120 said:

Indeed, but we should not forget either what current missiles turning capabilities are nowadays, they are really eyewatering. So its a case of train as if you need it, but if they fire at you one of those beasts its over.

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I'm not underestimating the missile, i just highly doubt that either "high maneuvring aircraft" or their guns are "obselete" / out of the game. "There is no abolute in combat".