Laser bombing moving targets - how?

[Hillman]

Hi,

I have problems targeting a moving target with a laser guided bomb.
I have set the TPOD to auto-lase (ALAS) and continous lasing (CDES) and manage to get a Point-track to follow the target. I also have hit the designate (TDC depress). However the bomb hit at the point where the target was at time of designation even though the TPOD is following the target and all looks ok. What am I doing wrong?

[Poptart]

Track file?

[Hillman]

Just realized what I was doing wrong: I fixed the moving target to a point track so the cursor (in PTRK) followed the target. After that I pressed the designate button. In this case I then need to use TDC to pickup the target again. So it seems like one should first designate (close to the target) and THEN aqcuire the target in a PTRK mode. Then it works for me.

[Tenkom]

Sounds strange to me. The bomb follows the laser. It doesn't care about the designation. If your tgp was following the target and lasing the bomb should hit the target unless the laser was outside the bomb's field of view.

[BuLLeT.ZA]

1 hour ago, Tenkom said:

Sounds strange to me. The bomb follows the laser. It doesn't care about the designation. If your tgp was following the target and lasing the bomb should hit the target unless the laser was outside the bomb's field of view.

Correct. The designation only matters for release purposes, which is what CDES comes in useful for.

Then again, I'm having issues with CDES and auto tracking as well.

[Hillman]

10 hours ago, Tenkom said:

Sounds strange to me. The bomb follows the laser. It doesn't care about the designation. If your tgp was following the target and lasing the bomb should hit the target unless the laser was outside the bomb's field of view.

Well, it definetly did not follow the laser (assuming having the TPOD cursor following the target also means that the laser is following the target) The bomb landed somewhere near where the cursor was when I pressed the TDC depress for designation. So it's a bit confusing though I now get it to work mostly. Not sure if it's me or DCS that's not consisten

I also see that when pressing TDC designate the track mode sometime change from PTRK to ATRK... Why is that?

Should you designate (TDC depress) before or after setting up the point track (Auto Acqu Depress)?

 

[Hardt0kidnap]

1 hour ago, Hillman said:

Well, it definetly did not follow the laser (assuming having the TPOD cursor following the target also means that the laser is following the target) The bomb landed somewhere near where the cursor was when I pressed the TDC depress for designation. So it's a bit confusing though I now get it to work mostly. Not sure if it's me or DCS that's not consisten

I also see that when pressing TDC designate the track mode sometime change from PTRK to ATRK... Why is that?

Should you designate (TDC depress) before or after setting up the point track (Auto Acqu Depress)?

 

 

The current issue with both the LANTIRN and DCS is that heat signatures aren't really... good.

In a scripted mission, most vehicles will spawn in cold, making it very hard to land a track on them. And with the LANTIRN being lackluster in both magnification and IR capabilities, it's a challenge to land any sort of track. But if you land a track, use CDES as it will continously designate the target until you are within rel parameters. The issue with that is that if you somehow lose the track, you're again screwed.

This mission: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3331710/ tells you to use guns instead of bombs if you are having trouble tracking the targets

[QuiGon]

@Hillman Can you provide a short track file of the issue, so we can take a look?
 

18 hours ago, Hillman said:

Should you designate (TDC depress) before or after setting up the point track (Auto Acqu Depress)?

Shouldn't matter. In fact, when dropping LGBs on moving targets, it's better not to designate the target itself, but some point ahead of its moving path, to give the bomb some lead on release. Otherwise it would have to catch up, bleeding energy in the process (maybe too much to still be able to reach the target).

Edited July 7, 2023 by QuiGon

[CH4Pz]

Gotta say, after setting up a specific training mission for this, the point track is pretty useless atm. im pressing "acquisition press" 20 times, even then its potluck whether it latches on or not. i really hope this gets addressed, sooner rather than later...

 

ive been caught out by it switching back to area too... surely thats gotta be a bug... gbus really cant cope with much wind either atm

[dporter22]

I'm very confused on the difference between Designate and Track, and how to get a track.

In the A-10 you simply put the TPOD on the target and long press.  This designates the target and tracks it, and the laser stays on the target.

In the F-15, it sounds like I have to TDC Press at some distance ahead of a moving target, then Auto Acq Press to track it, and even if the TPOD tracks the laser may or may not. Is that correct? If so it doesn't seem very efficient/effective.

 

 

[CH4Pz]

7 hours ago, dporter22 said:

I'm very confused on the difference between Designate and Track, and how to get a track.

In the A-10 you simply put the TPOD on the target and long press.  This designates the target and tracks it, and the laser stays on the target.

In the F-15, it sounds like I have to TDC Press at some distance ahead of a moving target, then Auto Acq Press to track it, and even if the TPOD tracks the laser may or may not. Is that correct? If so it doesn't seem very efficient/effective.

 

 

i think designate tells the computer where u plan to drop the dumb bomb part, and generates the cues etc, then the laser fine tunes it on the way down. i had better success last night switching to black hot, the "auto acquisition press" seems to latch on better, of course that maybe background dependent. once it was latched all gbus hit the target ok. Setting designation isnt all that important with CDES boxed (needed for point tracks) as the name suggests, its constantly re-designates anyway.

It seems to have a habit of slipping back into area track, and then the latching doesn't work either, so if its not grabbing check that. i reduced the wind in my practice mission too, as i think that needs some tuning in updates, it is after all EA

[lxsapper]

I've not been having trouble using this from the Pilot seat (can't remember how to do it from the WSO as most things are slightly diferent from that seat). I've been using the method of designating a point on the ground and then using point track on the target I intend to hit (I just read about CDES and have yet to try it out). To do it from the pilot seat I first designate the release point with TDC press, then I make sure the TPOD is in PTRK and I use Auto ACC Press (Not TDC Press) to put the TPOD in acquisiton, then I just put the cross over the target or point it at a point forward of the target in the road and as soon as the target drives over it, the TPOD will track it.

[QuiGon]

11 hours ago, dporter22 said:

I'm very confused on the difference between Designate and Track, and how to get a track.

If you designate something (TDC DEPRESS for the pilot), you make it a target for your weapon systems. You will get steering indications for an AUTO- (CCRP-) Release and later you will also be able to transfer the designated coordinates to JDAMs.

Tracking something (AUTO ACQUISITION DEPRESS with tracking mode boxed on the TPOD apge) on the other hand does just means that your TPOD will automatically follow the tracked target.

  

11 hours ago, dporter22 said:

In the A-10 you simply put the TPOD on the target and long press.  This designates the target and tracks it, and the laser stays on the target

That's not how it works in the A-10C. In the A-10C tracking and designating are two entirely different things as well:

With TPOD being the active sensor (SOI), pressing TMS UP LONG will designate a target (actually it will designate the TPOD as the source for the SPI, which is your designation).

To track a target, you need to press TMS UP SHORT to activate a POINT or AREA track and cycle between them. TMS DOWN SHORT will give you an INS track.

  

11 hours ago, dporter22 said:

In the F-15, it sounds like I have to TDC Press at some distance ahead of a moving target, then Auto Acq Press to track it, and even if the TPOD tracks the laser may or may not. Is that correct? If so it doesn't seem very efficient/effective.

When dropping LGBs on a moving target it is good practice to not designate the target directly, but a point in space ahead of its movement path, to give the bomb some lead so it does not have to "catch up" and bleed energy doing so. This is nothing special in the F-15E. It applies to LGB dropping in general, no matter the aircraft.

You can of course Designate the target directly and keep the laser following it, but that means your LGB will have to correct its flight path much more and thus bleed more energy.

It is important to understand that (automatic) tracking is entirely optional. It's totally up to you if you prefer to manually slew the TGP to follow the target or use POINT TRACK to let the TPOD follow it automatically or to not follow it at all and instead aim at a point in space ahead of the target for it to "drive into your bomb".

Edited July 9, 2023 by QuiGon

[felixx75]

43 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

When dropping LGBs on a moving target it is good practice to not designate the target directly, but a point in space ahead of its movement path

I've actually never had the problem of not hitting a moving target unless I aimed ahead of it. I don't have this problem in the F-15 either. However, I may not be trying to hit a target that is moving at 300kph. 

Edited July 9, 2023 by felixx75

[QuiGon]

20 minutes ago, felixx75 said:

I've actually never had the problem of not hitting a moving target unless I aimed ahead of it. I don't have this problem in the F-15 either. However, I may not be trying to hit a target that is moving at 300kph. 

Indeed, it depends a lot on the speed of the target and its direction of travel compared to your own. Obviously, the faster the target drives, the less successful you will be if you designate the target directly instead of a point ahead of it.

[dporter22]

8 hours ago, QuiGon said:

That's not how it works in the A-10C. In the A-10C tracking and designating are two entirely different things as well:

With TPOD being the active sensor (SOI), pressing TMS UP LONG will designate a target (actually it will designate the TPOD as the source for the SPI, which is your designation).

To track a target, you need to press TMS UP SHORT to activate a POINT or AREA track and cycle between them. TMS DOWN SHORT will give you an INS track. 

Maybe I didn't explain it thoroughly, but my point is that it is seamless in the A-10. I select point track, slew the TPOD over a moving target, TMS forward long and the TPOD designates and tracks the target, and the LGB guides right to it.

In the F-15E, it seems you have to designate a point ahead of the target, then wait for it to move to that point, then press Auto Acq to track the target, but tracking the target is not a designation of the target so the LGB doesn't guide, and if you try to designate the moving target while it's being tracked you lose the track and it simply designates the point on the ground where the target used to be.

Update:  I tried again just now and still can't figure out how to designate a moving target. I can get a point track which follows the target, but pressing designate either before or after getting a point track simply designates a point on the ground, not the moving target. Tried it with CDES boxed and unboxed and neither one designates a moving target.

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by dporter22

[felixx75]

1 hour ago, dporter22 said:

Maybe I didn't explain it thoroughly, but my point is that it is seamless in the A-10. I select point track, slew the TPOD over a moving target, TMS forward long and the TPOD designates and tracks the target, and the LGB guides right to it.

In the F-15E, it seems you have to designate a point ahead of the target, then wait for it to move to that point, then press Auto Acq to track the target, but tracking the target is not a designation of the target so the LGB doesn't guide, and if you try to designate the moving target while it's being tracked you lose the track and it simply designates the point on the ground where the target used to be.

 

You don't have to designate ahead of your target. I never do that and always hit the target. I find my moving target, establish a point track, designate (CDES boxed) and that's it.

Edited July 9, 2023 by felixx75

[dorianR666]

1 hour ago, dporter22 said:

tracking the target is not a designation of the target so the LGB doesn't guide

i think you have some severe misconceptions of what image tracking is and how laser-guided bombs are guided.

designation has nothing to do with LGB guiding. LGB doesnt know anything about any designations, it only follows laser. laser is fired at the middle of your TGP image, regardless of some designations or image tracking.

21 hours ago, dporter22 said:

I'm very confused on the difference between Designate and Track, and how to get a track.

designation = coordinates for which the ballistic solution is computed by the aircraft.

track = the TGP slews itself automatically to stay on target, so you dont have to slew the TGP manually.

Edited July 9, 2023 by dorianR666

[dporter22]

48 minutes ago, felixx75 said:

You don't have to designate ahead of your target. I never do that and always hit the target. I find my moving target, establish a point track, designate (CDES boxed) and that's it.

 

That's what I'm saying doesn't work. If you designate after acquiring a point track, the designation stays at the point on the ground that you designate, it doesn't follow the target.

[felixx75]

3 minutes ago, dporter22 said:

That's what I'm saying doesn't work. If you designate after acquiring a point track, the designation stays at the point on the ground that you designate, it doesn't follow the target.

Than you might be doing something wrong... For me it works just fine

[dporter22]

15 minutes ago, dorianR666 said:

i think you have some severe misconceptions of what image tracking is and how laser-guided bombs are guided.

designation has nothing to do with LGB guiding. LGB doesnt know anything about any designations, it only follows laser. laser is fired at the middle of your TGP image, regardless of some designations or image tracking.

designation = coordinates for which the ballistic solution is computed by the aircraft.

track = the TGP slews itself automatically to stay on target, so you dont have to slew the TGP manually.

 

So you're saying don't use designation at all for moving targets, just the point track?

[felixx75]

2 minutes ago, dporter22 said:

So you're saying don't use designation at all for moving targets, just the point track?

If you don't designate, you won't know when to drop your bomb. But the bomb is not guided by the designation, but by the laser.

[dporter22]

41 minutes ago, felixx75 said:

If you don't designate, you won't know when to drop your bomb. But the bomb is not guided by the designation, but by the laser.

But that's what doesn't work. Designating a moving target designates a point on the ground, not the target, and the target diamond and ASL are relevant to the designated point. 

How do I designate a moving target is what I'm asking.

Track attached.  CDES is boxed, tank is point tracked, TPOD follows it, pressing designate removes the point track. Designate again, acquire point track again, fly ASL to weapon release, weapon does not guide to tank which is still being tracked because it's not designated as the target.

F15 LGB.trk

Edited July 9, 2023 by dporter22

[felixx75]

8 minutes ago, dporter22 said:

But that's what doesn't work. Designating a moving target designates a point on the ground, not the target, and the target diamond and ASL are relevant to the designated point. 

How do I designate a moving target is what I'm asking.

If your target is not moving at 300+ km/h, that is perfectly ok. Also, if you have boxed "CDES", the position will be permanently designated.
The original designation just tells your computer to drop the weapon here, and that should be close enough for the bomb, which is then directed by the laser, to reach the target. The only requirement is that 1. the target is not extremely fast and 2. you are not extremely slow, so that the bomb has enough energy.

Edited July 9, 2023 by felixx75

[dporter22]

The original designation is not "close enough" because the target is moving away from it. How do I designate a moving target and keep the designation on it?

I've tried with CDES boxed and unboxed. 

Edited July 9, 2023 by dporter22