Boulund Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Do that in a real heli : light deflection of rudder, keep cyclic steady. push trim 5 times. Nothing will happen ! Do the same in the sim (version 1.0) and you will have full (!!) rudder imployment. Please don´t tell me about improving trim technique - PLEASE ! This is because your trim technique is wrong. Upon releasing the trim button (in the sim, mind you) you should reset your joystick to idle position. By not doing this you add that "light deflection of rudder" multiplied five times to a total of what you describe as "full rudder (!!) imployment"... Are you sure you've read the manual and consulted the various threads on this forum concering trimming? Edit: I'm terribly sorry for not reading your post to the end and realizing you've got a force feedback joystick. My comment does not apply in that case... Core i5-760 @ 3.6Ghz, 4GB DDR3, Geforce GTX470, Samsung SATA HDD, Dell UH2311H 1920x1080, Saitek X52 Pro., FreeTrack homemade cap w/ LifeCam VX-1000, Windows 7 Professional x64 SP1. FreeTrack in DCS A10C (64bit): samttheeagle's headtracker.dll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisch Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 or get a MS-FFB2 ASAP - but It's hard to move from a cougar back to plastic with less buttons... I use my X36 handle on the MS FFB2 socket (so X/Y Axis are MS and I still have X36 stick in my hands including all firebuttons). (plus X35 T and Rudder Peddals) Maybe you want to do sth similar? Win 10 Pro | Trustmaster Warthog | MFG Rudders | VivePro Wireless Gear Lens modded | 1080ti OC Asus | 32 GB DD4 RAM | i7 9700 | Razer Chroma Orbweaver Keypad | Corsair KB | Derek Switchbox | USB Keypad | Logitech 502 | Jetseat with SimShaker Software | TrackIR5 | Autotkey | Thrustmaster Cougar MFDs | Monstertech Mounts | Saitek Throttle Quadrant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterP Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 (edited) Meanwhile I have bought a used 6years old (no issues!) MSFFB2 for 60€ on a popular internet trading site -and I love it! Now I'm caught between both worlds. (FFB and Cougar) But I have a eye on the new Logitech G490 that will bring FFB to a hotas-setup. Edited August 1, 2009 by PeterP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisch Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 (edited) Meanwhile I have bought a used 6years old (no issues!) MSFFB2 for 60€ on a popular internet trading site -and I love it! Now I'm caught between both worlds. (FFB and Cougar) But I have a eye on the new Logitech G 940 thing that will bring FFB to a hotas-setup. WHOOooooOOOOTTT...... HOTAS incl. FFB... I need to update myself... looks strange on the first sight but Im used to 10 years of X36 design. Edit: WOW.. all the features my friends and I were looking for. Never found sth like that so we made our own. But I would put my custom made away. I also noticed now that the peddals are included. Wow... So I could sell my Saitek Peddals to lower expenses. Edited August 1, 2009 by Atelophobia 1 Win 10 Pro | Trustmaster Warthog | MFG Rudders | VivePro Wireless Gear Lens modded | 1080ti OC Asus | 32 GB DD4 RAM | i7 9700 | Razer Chroma Orbweaver Keypad | Corsair KB | Derek Switchbox | USB Keypad | Logitech 502 | Jetseat with SimShaker Software | TrackIR5 | Autotkey | Thrustmaster Cougar MFDs | Monstertech Mounts | Saitek Throttle Quadrant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddahlstrom Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 I was just doing a check for new HOTAS and had pretty much lost hope of finding a decent one with good FF support, and stumbled on this G940 system at Amazon. I will definitely be interested in hearing reports on how well this works with BS when it comes out. It's a bit expensive, but looks almost as comprehensive as one could have hoped for. WHOOooooOOOOTTT...... HOTAS incl. FFB... I need to update myself... looks strange on the first sight but Im used to 10 years of X36 design. Edit: WOW.. all the features my friends and I were looking for. Never found sth like that so we made our own. But I would put my custom made away. I also noticed now that the peddals are included. Wow... So I could sell my Saitek Peddals to lower expenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bisch Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 It's a bit expensive Maybe talking absolut....relativley not To almost (!) get what the G940 features I had to buy a X36 (ok old, but I didnt like the X45 or 52... did already cost 100 EUR looong time ago), a used (!) MS FFB2 (already 70 EUR), saitek rudder pedals (70-80 EUR). Then there was a lot of soldering etc and it's still not as much as the G940 delivers. At least on the paper - we ll have to see. At least I wouldn't have to use 3 different logical controllers and the old drivers. Not to mention the crappy Saitek programming software. Im confident... the Logitech DFP wheel was worth it's money for example. Just curious about the ugly X65 Win 10 Pro | Trustmaster Warthog | MFG Rudders | VivePro Wireless Gear Lens modded | 1080ti OC Asus | 32 GB DD4 RAM | i7 9700 | Razer Chroma Orbweaver Keypad | Corsair KB | Derek Switchbox | USB Keypad | Logitech 502 | Jetseat with SimShaker Software | TrackIR5 | Autotkey | Thrustmaster Cougar MFDs | Monstertech Mounts | Saitek Throttle Quadrant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lion737 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) Patch didnt fix rudder trim ??? In 1.0.1 user can adjust neutral position ("dead zone") separately for pitch, poll and rudder (in parts of full scale). So, if you set HelicopterTrimmerZoneRudder = 1.0 - you don't need to return pedals in center at all. I did as instructed. But it doesn´t work :mad: It just can´t be possible, that the patch didn´t fix the rudder trim !!! Please advice how I can disconnect the rudder trim, so I can use the trim together with the FFB stick as designed, keeping the rudder steady during trim, as it is in the real KA50 !!!!!!!!!!!! I waited patiently for that patch, but if this 2 minute programming work hasn´t been done, my patience is over :mad::mad::mad: I just don´t understand, that there isn´t a simple option to disable that trim influencing the rudder. ED invested years to create the best FM ever made for a Heli, and just forgot this simple option ???????? For all who think, I don´t know how to trim, once again the point: In the real KA50 the trim takes the pressure from the rudder, but it does NOT change the input. As rudder pedals for PC´s don´t have real centering pressure where is the reason for that weird implementation ? If I have some rudder applied in the sim (for example straight forward flight at 200 km/h: little right rudder to keep the ball centered) and I now ckick the trim the input doubles in the sim !! That would kill the real chopper instantly ! The sim design makes sense for forceless joysticks. But for the combination FFB stick PLUS rudder pedals (the most realistic way to fly BS - BTW) it is plain b.....t ! PS: I hope all real time pilots could back up on that matter and all simmers-only pilots refrain from advices about trim technique :smilewink: Edited August 11, 2009 by lion737 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splashman Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I did as instructed. But it doesn´t work :mad: It just can´t be possible, that the patch didn´t fix the rudder trim !!! Please advice how I can disconnect the rudder trim, so I can use the trim together with the FFB stick as designed, keeping the rudder steady during trim, as it is in the real KA50 !!!!!!!!!!!! I waited patiently for that patch, but if this 2 minute programming work hasn´t been done, my patience is over :mad::mad::mad: I just don´t understand, that there isn´t a simple option to disable that trim influencing the rudder. ED invested years to create the best FM ever made for a Heli, and just forgot this simple option ???????? For all who think, I don´t know how to trim, once again the point: In the real KA50 the trim takes the pressure from the rudder, but it does NOT change the input. If I have some rudder applied in the sim (for example straight forward flight at 200 km/h: little right rudder to keep the ball centered) and I now ckick the trim the input doubles in the sim !! That would kill the real chopper instantly ! The sim design makes sense for forceless joysticks. But for the combination FFB stick PLUS rudder pedals (the most realistic way to fly BS - BTW) it is plain b.....t ! PS: I hope all real time pilots could back up on that matter and all simmers-only pilots refrain from advices about trim technique :smilewink: Hi, i think, this is absolutely correct. The only axis that is causing trouble in regards of trim is rudder. One problem is, if you are in a way out of center trim position you need a new trim with the opposite amount of rudder just to come back to center! As long as you don't have the real hardware it would be much more intuitive to simply disable rudder trim. I started the game after 6 month to check out the new patch and i managed to crash two times in a row just because of bad rudder trim. Please consider this simple solution, just make an option to disable rudder trim. thx, splashman i7 2600K - 8GB - Win7/64 - Radeon R9 280 / 3GB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelstrom Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I called for disabling of trimming for the pedals in the russian section already, now I second that here too. I use joystick twist instead of pedals and I have to quickly recenter twist and trim once the helicopter goes on a new course, which seems quite uncomfortable. I saw a video of a Ka-50 pilot flying where the clicks of trimming were loud and clear, and i heard no clicks as he turned with pedals. So it seems that in reality once you recenter the pedals the helicopter just maintains current course like it's in DCS with director mode on. Again, a review from a real helicopter pilot would be fine. СоВа Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddahlstrom Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I'm currently using an X36, and haven't tried the patch yet. My rudder is on the throttle and is self-centering; consequently, the existing method of trimming works acceptably, and the patch should make it even better. On the other hand, I have also taken an interest in getting a better HOTAS with pedals, probably the new G940 with FF, in order to further increase the realism and improve my flying. The issue in this thread, however, is something that I thought about even before reading it and has me concerned. I think Lion737 is right in that non-centering pedals shouldn't require manual re-centering during a trim. A huge reason I'm considering a FF setup is to get rid of the artifical need to re-center *at all* during a trim operation. However, if I get this ability for the cyclic but I still have to think about re-centering the rudder pedals, I get the feeling this is going to be awkward, with possibly no improvement (or worse) than what I have now. Is it true that the patch really doesn't address this, and is this really the problem I'm making it out to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombat778 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) As rudder pedals for PC´s don´t have real centering pressure where is the reason for that weird implementation ? I think your statement is way too broad. There are some PC rudder pedals that do not have centering pressure, but there are also plenty that do. My pedals do self-center, so the current implementation works very well (it is not "weird" at all). That said, I do agree there should be an option for those without self-centering rudder pedals... Edited August 11, 2009 by wombat778 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lion737 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) Hi Wombat, I did NOT plead for no rudder trim for everybody. Please read the post carefully before arguing against it. I strongly suggested the option to disable it, because they make no sense for the combination FFB stick and most of the rudder pedals. regards PS: exactly as dahlstrom discribed, if you use a FFB stick, where you don´t have to do the centering, it does not make to much sense to think about centering the rudder, even if it has self-centering. BTW, there is NO centering of the rudder in the real KA50 ! No pilot would go airborne with such a ´weird´ system installed, cause you wouldn´t survive too much flights. Edited August 11, 2009 by lion737 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombat778 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) Please read the post carefully before arguing against it. Trust me, I did read your post(s) carefully, which is why I responded to a specific quote that I thought was too broad. IMHO, it was not appropriate to describe the entire implementation as "weird" because it does not happen to work on your particular setup. The current implementation works just fine for me, and I suspect many others. That was my only point. In any event, good luck and I hope you get your wish. :beer: One suggestion - you might find you get a better response to your requests if your posts were a little less over-the-top. For example, I note from Matt Wagner's signature that he uses a G940, a force feedback setup. That suggests that he may have already encountered and dealt with the issue. Maybe a reasonable and polite post or PM to him would get you the answer you seek... Edited August 11, 2009 by wombat778 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lion737 Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) One suggestion - you might find you get a better response to your requests if your posts were a little less over-the-top. OK, I agree with that :thumbup: But to my defend: I did buy BS on the first day available. I did fly Flanker 1.0 from the first days (more than 10 years ago...). So I really supported ED from the beginning. BS is again a great sim. But after a few days I had to give up, because I couldn´t manage this ´special´ rudder trim implementation. I now waited half a year for that patch, because they promised to fix the trim. Can you perhaps understand why my post was indeed a little bit over-the-top ? Edited August 11, 2009 by lion737 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonRR Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Regardless of the post being a little over the top I was intending to buy the G940 system and am now wondering if that would be a bad idea with the current situation. It would be nice to hear a response from a dev on this. :weight_lift_2: [sIGPIC]Click me to go to the post[/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gurkenschneider Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 +1 would be nice to hear from the devs when the rudder trim will be adressed ! I have bought my MS FFB only for BS. But now the centering of the rudder pedals is even more annoying ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddahlstrom Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 I just noticed another thread has now popped up on the same/similar issue. I'm just hoping there's an answer for this by the time the G940 is released, as I'm very much looking forward to it. Now that I have the patch installed, trim works better than ever on my X36 with its self-centering rocker/rudder (very nice!); but it looks like non-centering pedals may have taken a step backward. Any ED folks around to comment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lion737 Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Any comment from ED somewhere ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snacko Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Have you guys tried changing the Rudder Trim Deadzone to a larger number so it does not get trimmed? I have not, but it may help? C:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\Ka-50\Scripts\Aircrafts\_Common\FMOptions.lua HelicopterTrimmerZoneRudder = ?????? Intel I9-10850K (OC @ 5.0ghz) │ Asus Maximus XII Hero │ G.Skill Ripjaws 64GB (4x16GB) DDR4 3200 │ Thermaltake Water 360mm Gigabyte RTX 4090 Gaming OC 24gb │ 2TB M.2 EVO Pro; 1T M.2 EVO; Sandisk SSD Drives │ 49" Samsung Curved Widescreen │ 28" Touchscreen - ҉ - Blackshark Cockpit Trainer - ҉ - ♣ Thread | ♥ Download Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albatros Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Any comment from ED somewhere ? I would also like to know, because I use a combination of Cougar Throttle, MSFF2-Stick (which I bought especially for BS) and Saitek Rudders. I'd like to disable rudder-trimming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddahlstrom Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Didn't lion737 say in a previous post that this doesn't work? Can anyone else who has tried this report on whether it works or not? Have you guys tried changing the Rudder Trim Deadzone to a larger number so it does not get trimmed? I have not, but it may help? C:\Program Files\Eagle Dynamics\Ka-50\Scripts\Aircrafts\_Common\FMOptions.lua HelicopterTrimmerZoneRudder = ?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lion737 Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 I did try several numbers. It just doesn´t work :-(( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Chizh Posted August 15, 2009 ED Team Share Posted August 15, 2009 For FFB users the new trimmer method isn't import. Rudder can trimm with old method. You can adjust HelicopterTrimmerTauInverse Единственный урок, который можно извлечь из истории, состоит в том, что люди не извлекают из истории никаких уроков. (С) Джордж Бернард Шоу Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddahlstrom Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Would you set HelicopterTrimmerTauInverse to 0? I can't confirm since I don't have a FF stick yet (using this thread to validate the purchase of one). Can lion737 confirm whether this works? For FFB users the new trimmer method isn't import. Rudder can trimm with old method. You can adjust HelicopterTrimmerTauInverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lion737 Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 (edited) For FFB users the new trimmer method isn't import. Rudder can trimm with old method. You can adjust HelicopterTrimmerTauInverse ...and this is what the readme says: HelicopterTrimmerTauInverse = 7.0 - time factor for the period given the player to re-center his controls when using the original trimmer implementation. Is it possible, they just don´t understand the problem ???? We don´t need a time factor, when the rudder trim is switched off and the FFB stick doesn´t need any centering either. The beta testers did want the unrealistic trim reset function, because they messed up with the rudder trim too often. Instead it would have been much more realistic to substitute the reset with the OFF function. I will not waste more time with that, and be back when the A10 is out. Edited August 16, 2009 by lion737 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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