"Golden Age" of flight sims?

[Rudel_chw]

8 minutes ago, LucShep said:

An honest question - have you even spend time on some of those sims? Say, something like EF2000, Jane's Longbow or Falcon 4.0 ?

Ef2000, what wonderful memories … it was the first flight sim that supported the then new graphics accelerators, the 3dfx voodoo, the most powerful 3d card of the market, yet affordable at us$300 on 1997. The Ef2000 supported easy LAN play, on those times we had to actually meet together with up to 8 friends in order to play .. no internet play was  yet possible .. we used to rent large rooms at colleges and played for whole week-ends to make carrying our gaming rigs worthwhile

 

A piece of advice: dont lose time debating with Sharpe, its a lost cause .. Use the forum’s ignore facility, its there just for this kind of people

 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Flight sims, in general sense, were far from niche in late 90s. Not the only game in town (not even the best one), but certainly a big enough genre.

Without any real statistics to back up that claim I find it very hard to believe. People would have been the same then as now. Why would there be this surge of interest 30 years ago? Was there a baby boom of sim pilots? For the same reasons flight sims are niche today they would have been a niche then. There was an abundance of these games simply because it appears they were just easy to make.

I will be glad to be wrong if you can find a chart like the one above with a big fat bar that says “Flight”

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

F-22 Lightning II was the best selling military simulation at the time (although a middling game at best), with 360k copies sold:

I have to believe every DCS module sells more than that. They’d have to or ED wouldn’t be in business. 

[SharpeXB]

30 minutes ago, LucShep said:

For someone that wants facts and figures to prove an impossible point, it sure looks like you're basing yourself on opinions of others that suit yours (and, in the process, ignoring people's opinions that don't).
That guy was selling his product... what else were you expecting him to say??

You can’t seriously think one of those old games was the same amount of work as a DCS module is today. 

[LucShep]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Without any real statistics to back up that claim I find it very hard to believe. People would have been the same then as now. Why would there be this surge of interest 30 years ago? Was there a baby boom of sim pilots?

Quite obvious don't you think?

YTB channels (and the so called "content creators") are a heck of a PR machine for game studios today. It works far better than the reviews and ads on printed magazines did. 

The pandemic was a major factor recently. There were never more sales in a smalll closed period in time for PCs, Consoles and respective game titles (of whatever genre). 

A certain hollywod movie with a celebrity actor got its sequel, over 30 years later, a monumental success and is part of popular culture now. Maybe ED can confirm how big was the number of sales of the F/A-18 and F-14 modules then and since. 

By your logic, as they now sell so much more, DCS and every other modern sim got soooo much better and more complex all of a sudden, in such a small space in time, right? 
But they didn't, did they?

DCS and other sim competitors, already by then, exhisted and were recognized for years. Yet none ever seen as many newcomers than during this period, for sure.
It has nothing to do with "better or worse" comparisons of "today vs the old days" sim titles and era. It has to do with circumstances, and a huge quantity of people all of a suden locked in their places, with money to burn and eager for entertainment, discovering new hobbies.  Something we may read or watch later as case study, I suspect.

Edited August 9, 2023 by LucShep

[freehand]

1 hour ago, Rudel_chw said:

Ef2000, what wonderful memories … it was the first flight sim that supported the then new graphics accelerators, the 3dfx voodoo, the most powerful 3d card of the market, yet affordable at us$300 on 1997. The Ef2000 supported easy LAN play, on those times we had to actually meet together with up to 8 friends in order to play .. no internet play was  yet possible .. we used to rent large rooms at colleges and played for whole week-ends to make carrying our gaming rigs worthwhile

 

A piece of advice: dont lose time debating with Sharpe, its a lost cause .. Use the forum’s ignore facility, its there just for this kind of people

 

I still have my copy of Ef2000 the manual alone is over 300 pages.

I also have my copy of Tornado which If I remember correctly was written in assembler.

Edited August 9, 2023 by freehand

[wilbur81]

This is the proof that we're in the Golden Age now.  

 

[LucShep]

1 hour ago, wilbur81 said:

This is the proof that we're in the Golden Age now.  

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRCQ3WHKWEE

I don't agree with the comment but I'd like to say thanks for posting that vid.  That was a great show (thanks to all involved).

[Eugel]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

There was an abundance of these games simply because it appears they were just easy to make.

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I have to believe every DCS module sells more than that. They’d have to or ED wouldn’t be in business. 

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Without any real statistics to back up that claim I find it very hard to believe.

 

[MAXsenna]

Guys. I told you trying to convince him is futile. It's his MO, and he does because he's bored. He has repeatedly admitted it in other threads.
One more thing that made the "Golden Age" was the start of overclocking. I took my Dremel, a soldering iron and a piece of cooper wire to my Celeron 300 MHz and made it go to 500 MHz. Can you make such a difference today, even with liquid Nitrogen?

And @Rudel_chw I did actually play ED2000 multiplayer in VR over the Internet in 97.
Heck. Even had co-op in Jane's Longbow. Was an amazing experience to be together in the aircraft for the first time.
Can't remember what we used for voice comms though.

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[Eugel]

9 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

Ef2000, what wonderful memories … it was the first flight sim that supported the then new graphics accelerators, the 3dfx voodoo, the most powerful 3d card of the market, yet affordable at us$300 on 1997. The Ef2000 supported easy LAN play, on those times we had to actually meet together with up to 8 friends in order to play .. no internet play was  yet possible .. we used to rent large rooms at colleges and played for whole week-ends to make carrying our gaming rigs worthwhile

 

A piece of advice: dont lose time debating with Sharpe, its a lost cause .. Use the forum’s ignore facility, its there just for this kind of people

 

Ah yes, 3dfx was a real gamechanger, I remember my first flight sim with 3dfx was Longbow 2. Back then, we thought this was "almost photorealistic"

I think my first multiplayer experience was "Flight of the Intruder" in 1991, of course I had to carry my computer over to my friends house and we hooked them up with a cable. But that was great fun, I was shooting down Migs with the F4 while my friend was bombing in the A6.

Yeah, the discussion isn´t going anywhere, but it brings back good memories.

Edit: Wait no, in 91, I was still playing on my Amiga, so it had to be later, I don´t think I played that on the Amiga, but I´m not sure...

Edited August 9, 2023 by Eugel

[Baldrick33]

19 minutes ago, Eugel said:

Yeah, the discussion isn´t going anywhere, but it brings back good memories.

Yes it does! 

Rather than be any kind of criticism to the modern age of sims, it is why I am grateful we have the enthusiasts we do have as developers since the big publishers abandoned the genre. Developers need to be more creative now how they seek funds, most have commercial projects which help them fulfil their dreams of making “our” products. I often think they could make more money targeting the wider markets but want to make the products they do and I respect that. I hope they do make a decent wage out of us.
 

[Rudel_chw]

4 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

And @Rudel_chw I did actually play ED2000 multiplayer in VR over the Internet in 97.
Heck. Even had co-op in Jane's Longbow. Was an amazing experience to be together in the aircraft for the first time.
Can't remember what we used for voice comms though.

My memory isnt what it was, but I’m fairly sure that EF2000 didn’t have internet capability, only tcp/ip on a lan. My first sim with internet capability was EA’s us navy fighters, coupled with a dial-up software, can’t remember its name .. it was a chore to attain connection, so I didn’t did multiplayer more than a couple of times.. meeting for lan play was so much easier.

[MAXsenna]

My memory isnt what it was, but I’m fairly sure that EF2000 didn’t have internet capability, only tcp/ip on a lan. My first sim with internet capability was EA’s us navy fighters, coupled with a dial-up software, can’t remember its name .. it was a chore to attain connection, so I didn’t did multiplayer more than a couple of times.. meeting for lan play was so much easier.

Oh, your memory serves you correct. I was just being informative.
I could play any IPX supported game over the Internet through something called Kali, which translated IPX to TCP/IP and back. First diskless download only software I purchased online. Used it a lot, And it was mandatory to learn about networking. So, my first step on my career.

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[Slippa]

30 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

My memory isnt what it was,

You keep forgetting to mention that.

I do too, it’s the price we pay for having enjoyed the earlier days of flight simming. ‘The Golden Years’ some might say.

[Rudel_chw]

14 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

I could play any IPX supported game over the Internet through something called Kali, which translated IPX to TCP/IP and back.
 

Kali, yes, that was the dialup software that I used with us navy fighters  at the time I used an ISDN phone line to connect to the internet … main problem was that almost none of my friends had internet connection, so we kept doing our week-end lan fests for several years (on spanish we called these fests "tarreos", as "tarro" (tin can) was the nickname that gamer’s pc’s had).

[MAXsenna]

Kali, yes, that was the dialup software that I used with us navy fighters  at the time I used an ISDN phone line to connect to the internet … main problem was that almost none of my friends had internet connection, so we kept doing our week-end lan fests for several years (on spanish we called these fests "tarreos", as "tarro" (tin can) was the nickname that gamer’s pc’s had).

Right. I had ISDN at home. But a 2Mbps at work, so I could use it without the dialup.

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[SharpeXB]

6 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Guys. I told you trying to convince him is futile. It's his MO, and he does because he's bored.

And everyone else is here, because…

My goal here is to point out that flight sims aren’t dead. I’m open to being proved wrong but that would require actual data. 

[LucShep]

24 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

My goal here is to point out that flight sims aren’t dead. I’m open to being proved wrong but that would require actual data. 

I don't think anyone dispute this, here or elsewhere. Flight sims are not dead, far from it.
But to claim that the genre lives a better moment now than about 25 years ago (the supposed "Golden Age") is a bit of a fantasy...

[MAXsenna]

And everyone else is here, because…
My goal here is to point out that flight sims aren’t dead. I’m open to being proved wrong but that would require actual data. 

That's your take on all of this?
We're nostalgic, and you think we're thinking the sky is falling?
It was an end of an era. This is another one. FFS!

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[SharpeXB]

11 minutes ago, LucShep said:

But to claim that the genre lives a better moment now than about 25 years ago (the supposed "Golden Age") is a bit of a fantasy...

Well I don’t agree with that sentiment. Define “better” in a way that’s not just a matter of opinion. In any way you can measure it, these games are better today IMO. If those old games are truly better why are you playing DCS?

[freehand]

The part in the video when they all said I remember this & that and the look on there face e.t.c That WAS the golden age nothing todo with sales or popularity realism. 

 

Edited August 9, 2023 by freehand

[Eugel]

I don´t think anyone in this thread said flight sims are dead. We wouldn´t be here if they were...

Maybe we should rename the thread into "The good old times" and just share those fond memories ...

[SharpeXB]

1 minute ago, MAXsenna said:

We're nostalgic, and you think we're thinking the sky is falling?

Nostalgia is fine. The above statement that 90s games or flight simulation as a whole was “better” than today is what I disagree on. 

[MAXsenna]

Nostalgia is fine. The above statement that 90s games or flight simulation as a whole was “better” than today is what I disagree on. 

Read again what you wrote.

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[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Read again what you wrote.

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Nostalgia isn’t quantifiable. I’m looking for a definition of “better” or “golden era” that is.