reported RWR incorrectly shows lock or launch from incredible distance even if aimed at another target

[Kobymaru]

The RWR in any plane displays a radar lock or a missile launch even if it is not aimed at me, but at some other plane roughly along the line of sight between me and the source. The distance is unlimited, so you get lock and missile launch warnings from halfway across the map.

This is the case in ALL airplanes, but here it was tested with F14.

4YA_Cau_PVE2_V2.53[01_MAY_FEW]-20230730-165137.trk

Please, please, please fix this. This bug makes it so that the RWR alarm is ringing PERMANENTLY even if I am not being fired upon. This is incredibly stressful and makes the missile launch warning effectively useless.

[draconus]

20 hours ago, Kobymaru said:

The RWR in any plane displays a radar lock or a missile launch even if it is not aimed at me, but at some other plane roughly along the line of sight between me and the source.

This part is realistic. RWR just detects the beam signal strong enough and shows it on the cockpit display. It cannot know if it is locking you or someone close to the beam.

20 hours ago, Kobymaru said:

The distance is unlimited, so you get lock and missile launch warnings from halfway across the map.

This needs more data and numbers. What radar and what distance?

[Oceandar]

It did happened to me in MP more often than I could remember. I was still on the tarmac and heard a warning from Tomcat locking and launching a missile. Realistic or not its indeed annoying

[Kobymaru]

4 hours ago, draconus said:

This part is realistic. RWR just detects the beam signal strong enough and shows it on the cockpit display. It cannot know if it is locking you or someone close to the beam.

"the beam signal strong enough" - That's exactly the problem. There is zero attenuation with distance or angle or line-of-sight it seems. It's especially funny when you get locked while still on the ground.

4 hours ago, draconus said:

This needs more data and numbers. What radar and what distance?

All radars at all distances. I tested with Su-27, Mig29, Su25, Su25T, F-14, Mig21.

I have been "locked" and got launch warnings at ranges up to 220 km, way outside any detection radius, from all kinds of AI planes and ground SAMs who were actually locking and firing at a different, much closer target. On a busy MP server that has SAMs, this means that lock warning is pretty much permanently on.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Kobymaru

[Flappie]

Hi @Kobymaru. I tried your track but it won't play (DCS gets stuck while loading the mission).

I've been experiencing this bug, like all MP users have, for years. I want this bug gone for good.

For this bug to be fixed by devs, we need to demonstrate the issue in a very simple MP mission in what I would call "lab conditions". I'm trying to reproduce it right now from a ground start A-10C. Su-27s are coming in my direction to shoot at AI A-10s flying in their direction. I sit on the grass, facing the distant Su-27s.

I detect the Su-27s tracking signal at about 205 km. Is that too much or is that correct?

I don't detect any missile launch warning so far, even though the Su-27s get closer and closer during the mission. If you have any advice for me to witness the bug easily in these "lab" conditions, I'm all ears.

MP Detection range test.miz

Edited July 31, 2023 by Flappie

[Flappie]

Do you know by any chance if this bug only happens when the guy in front is a player, not an AI?

[draconus]

4 hours ago, Kobymaru said:

It's especially funny when you get locked while still on the ground.

It's nothing to laugh at - RWR works on the ground the same way. The 220km is barely over 100nm so it's far from halfway across the map, and not really that far for RWR to detect a strong locking beam.

Look, I'm not denying there's a bug. I want this to be simulated realistically. But it needs more proof and data than these simple arguments.

[Kobymaru]

Consider the followin g situation:

An Sa-11 Buk battery, an A-10 as target flying perpendicular, and the player approaching head-on

Mission:rwrtest_sa-11_100.miz
Track: rwrtest_sa-11_100.trk

Screenshot:

Spoiler

The maximum detection range of the Sa-11 Buk is according to the map: 100km

My distance to the Buk is 117 km, we should say out of the detection range, no?

The angle between the Buk, Player and A-10 is 40°

Before this screenshot, the RWR already shows a detection.

At the time of this screenshot, I already get a lock warning! However, no missile launch warning

After the A-10 is shot down and crashes, the RWR goes back to being detected but not locked for a minute or so, then goes back off.

Three questions about this:

1. Why am I being detected outside of the detection range?
2. Why does it matter for my RWR if the other plane is detected? This makes no physical sense to me.
3. The angle is 40°! Forty! Isn't the locking beam supposed to be pretty narrow to focus all the energy on a target? If this works in the other direction as well, that would be a beam width of 80° which is almost literally a quarter of the sky.

 

On 7/31/2023 at 11:07 PM, Flappie said:

Do you know by any chance if this bug only happens when the guy in front is a player, not an AI?

Not sure, but I'll keep an eye out for it when I play MP.

 

On 7/31/2023 at 11:36 PM, draconus said:

Look, I'm not denying there's a bug. I want this to be simulated realistically. But it needs more proof and data than these simple arguments.

OK but please keep in mind that I'm neither a radar physics scientist, nor a QA tester, so I'd prefer to not have to do testing/debugging work when I try to relax after a day of testing/debugging work. I feel like this issue has been noticed by so many for so long that it shouldn't be too difficult for ED to make test cases for this, no?

Building from the mission above and from the mission from Flappie I'll try to test various radar sources/distances/angles. That is whenever I find the time and energy after work to do free debugging for ED

Edited August 1, 2023 by Kobymaru

[Kobymaru]

Here, I get a RWR detection warning at a range of 250 km! Mind you, the detection range of Buk is still 100 km.

Mission: rwrtest_sa-11_250.miz

Track: rwrtest_sa-11_250.trk

Spoiler

A short time after the A-10 is shot down and crashes, the warning goes off and RWR is silent.

Interestingly, no lock warning this time, just detection warning.

 

[rob10]

1 hour ago, Kobymaru said:

Here, I get a RWR detection warning at a range of 250 km! Mind you, the detection range of Buk is still 100 km.

I'm not going to comment on the rest because I don't really have enough knowledge to do so, but from your #'s you're misinterpreting at least this.  If the BUK detection range is 100 km, that means the signal SENT OUT by the Buk has enough power to go at least 200 km (100 km out + enough energy after the 100 km return trip to the Buk to be detected).  Realistically it can travel much farther and still be at least somewhat detectable.  The RWR is NOT indicating you've been detected, it's indicating that YOU are DETECTING radar signal.  It tells you nothing about whether enough signal is getting back to him to be able to detect you.  You could well pick up the radar at 150 km (or 250 km) on your RWR well before enough signal is bouncing back for him to see you.  This is why using active radar (even in A-A) is always a trade-off -- the person you're looking for can see you before you see them.

A real life example.  Shine a flashlight at someone a long way away.  They can see it long before it's casting enough light for you to see them.

[draconus]

6 hours ago, Kobymaru said:

Building from the mission above and from the mission from Flappie I'll try to test various radar sources/distances/angles. That is whenever I find the time and energy after work to do free debugging for ED

This is always appreciated, thank you

6 hours ago, Kobymaru said:

Why am I being detected outside of the detection range?

This is correct. See @rob10 explanation above.

6 hours ago, Kobymaru said:

Why does it matter for my RWR if the other plane is detected? This makes no physical sense to me.

Electromagnetic waves do not belong to anyone. Your RWR is just a detector of them (out of thin air ). If the radar changes modes/states (for lock - tracking, or launch - missile guidance) this can be detected too, depending on the RWR system and database. This is of course simplified in DCS so there are hard limits for both range and angles. Some modules have better implementations.

7 hours ago, Kobymaru said:

The angle is 40°! Forty! Isn't the locking beam supposed to be pretty narrow to focus all the energy on a target?

This is probably a bug @Flappie. Well, if DCS simulated sidelobes here this still might scratch on reality, but I digress.

[Pavlin_33]

RL SPO-15 (Soviet RWR) will detect radiation at a minimum of 150% of the range of the illuminating radar.
 

[Mandellorian]

At what signal strength you will get tone is a threshold setting that is usually set by the big brains sitting in an HQ somewhere. DCS doesn`t simulate this and just generates the tones regardless, even though the RWR screens themselves do correctly prioritise signals. From the systems i`ve worked on i wouldn`t expect tone anywhere near as often as DCS generates it, with them only notifying the pilot when the strength of signal reaches a threshold where the pilot has to be aware. Otherwise you would end up with what we have in DCS now, a stupid system that generates distractions instead of actual threat indications.

[Flappie]

On 8/2/2023 at 8:42 AM, draconus said:

This is probably a bug @Flappie. Well, if DCS simulated sidelobes here this still might scratch on reality, but I digress.

Agreed.

Thanks @Kobymaru for the tracks. I've just reported the angle issue. I found out that the maximum lock cone angle is 90° (45° x 2).

[450Devil]

I do not know how ED has modelled radar propagation but in 2008 MIT Lincoln Laboratory published a short and understandable presentation on Radar Propagation Effects. It is available here https://www.ll.mit.edu/sites/default/files/outreach/doc/2018-07/lecture 3.pdf

From my experience in DCS I would guess that ED's model is much simpler than what occurs to radar radiation / defection in real life given the factors involved. An understandable limitation of a simulation / game.

 

[draconus]

On 12/2/2023 at 3:08 AM, 450Devil said:

From my experience in DCS I would guess that ED's model is much simpler than what occurs to radar radiation / defection in real life given the factors involved. An understandable limitation of a simulation / game.

Unfortunately not all modules are made to the same level and so the radar/RWR simulation differs much between them.