Ideas to improve mods

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

I agree, it would be the best place, if they up the storage limitations. Like others have told you, copyright might be an issue. I have no idea how Steam deals with it.

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I would venture to guess fair use for none commercial purposes as ED won't make money from mods. Though enabling someone to add custom repositories at their own risk might work.

[MAXsenna]

1 hour ago, upyr1 said:

The replacement suggest the mask idea and the total replacement. The ridiculousness of the mask idea would all depend on what is being masked. For example an F-4E masquerading as an F-4G wouldn't matter that much. Then there is the total replacement which is intended for solo play the idea here is if you download a mission that uses mods you don't have you'll be asked for a replacement.  The point is so you can ignore modules 

Oh, you mean the mod makers could define what it should be replaced with from the core game? Not bad idea actually. 

35 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

I agree, it would be the best place, if they up the storage limitations. Like others have told you, copyright might be an issue. I have no idea how Steam deals with it.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk
 

I would venture to guess fair use for none commercial purposes as ED won't make money from mods.

Probably, but it seems to be such a low hanging fruit I gather it must be some other reason. 

 

36 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

Though enabling someone to add custom repositories at their own risk might work.

It's already there in OvGME and Open Mod Manager. You need a webserver and edit the "list" of mods, and that can be a little daunting at first. 

Maybe someone will step up and host a repository for mod makers to use if we had some kind of official mod manager.  

[MAXsenna]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

 

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

There’s nothing mods do that’s worth the pain of dealing with them.

Again this is your personal point of view. 

Why ain't IADS part of the core game already? Beats me, but please do explain. 

Sometimes it takes less time trouble shooting DCS in general, than downloading and installing a super nice 3D model that will never exist in the game. 

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Again it’s not worth dealing with mods. There’s enough content in DCS right now I’ll never run out of things to do.

Subjecrive. In any case that's not the point. Of course there's enough TO DO, while users wants more immersiveness. Hence mods.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t need any extra modules or features in them.

"Subjective, your honour!" "Sustained".

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

It can never have every aircraft or vehicle or feature in it. 

Obviously. While we can get close with mods.

Would you rather have some 3rd party start punching out paid asset packs?  

I personally would purchase them all. It seems to me though that the multiplayer community in general trongly oppose this. Even more than you oppose mods.  

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Why ain't IADS part of the core game already?

But see it just doesn’t matter to me. If it gets that someday. Great. But I’m not going to put up with mods for any reason. It’s just not worthwhile. If you go down that road of what’s missing, well everything’s missing. It seems a bit obsessive compulsive to worry about it all. 

6 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Of course there's enough TO DO, while users wants more immersiveness. Hence mods.

Sure but if that immersion involves DLC campaigns, you’re just going to need to uninstall (not just deactivate) every mod on your machine. And nothing spoils immersion like constantly screwing with the game. 
 

And again expecting players to all have the same mods installed in multiplayer is just an impossibility. No matter if there is some filter or manager. That doesn’t make mods any better to deal with in terms of game stability. 

[MAXsenna]

37 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But see it just doesn’t matter to me. If it gets that someday. Great. But I’m not going to put up with mods for any reason. It’s just not worthwhile.

Yes, we know. For you. What do you care what I do/like. I can remove all mods in a few clicks. There's even a mod manager out there now that can apply/remove mods in seconds. 

 

39 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Sure but if that immersion involves DLC campaigns, you’re just going to need to uninstall (not just deactivate) every mod on your machine.

Not sure what you mean, or if it just proves how ignorant you are regarding mods. I use mods playing DLC campaigns, because a lot of campaigns lack features that could have been in the core game. 

 

41 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And again expecting players to all have the same mods installed in multiplayer is just an impossibility. No matter if there is some filter or manager. That doesn’t make mods any better to deal with in terms of game stability. 

And again, why do you care? 

If a squadron requires mods, well, tough luck for you. You can't play. 

An official mod manager could make life easier for everyone. It's bound to happen at one point.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Not sure what you mean, or if it just proves how ignorant you are regarding mods

Mods can screw up any aspect of the game including campaigns. Because they aren’t tested like official content is  

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Nipil]

Replacing models from mods with models of other assets is just a terrible idea, as it will cause confusion in almost any case. Visual ID, both of friends and foes, visual model not corresponding to collision model.

When it comes to ED investing any effort into making the game more mod-friendly, TBH, I think that there myriads of way more important tasks. ED has never pledged to support modfing, IIRC, and so it's justified that they ignore problems of mod users. I am not against it, but, really, there is already a community-made mod manager, why slow down DCS development even more for the sake of ED making the same thing? Don't know about comparing mods lists, shouldn't be too hard to implenent, but, once again, I'd rather they fixed one of these small annoying bugs that have been reported but not solved for years instead.

But I disagree with the somewhat irrational hate towards modding in general. Most mods are trash (especially those which portray modern stuff... especially those made by some certain ace from a certain Caribbean island). But there are some which really are good. Community A-4E mod is so good it even made it's way into DCS World 2023 and beyond trailer. Not to mention some mainstream Cold War servers. That's not the only example, MB339 and C-130 have long been mods prior to going official. I don't see how people using mods like this harm anyone, and calling such mods "junk" is clearly not appropriate. The aforementioned A-4E is in a better state than official MiG-21 now, it seems, and in some aspects is more realistic. The "headache" part is also somewhat exaggerated, at least if you use a small number of quality mods.

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Mods can screw up any aspect of the game including campaigns. Because they aren’t tested like official content is  

 

 

Honestly, though, ED does this too with almost (?) each OB, and sometimes they don't fix such things for years (the F-5 drivers seem to know that especially well, as does every mission creator). Although I would agree that using mods always adds it's risks, proportional to the mods' quality and quantity. I only use A-4 mod BTW, since it's ptobably only one I find both interesting and good enough.

[SharpeXB]

15 minutes ago, Nipil said:

calling such mods "junk" is clearly not appropriate.

When I say junk I mean their potential to cause problems in the game. And the amount of time they suck up in managing. Good or bad they’re all the same in that regard. Or as better stated in the video they’re like a hot girl who’s going to give you a disease

[Rudel_chw]

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

When I say junk I mean their potential to cause problems in the game.

 

Ok, you dont like user mods .. I can respect that.

But why are you posting on the wish thread of another user that happens to like user mods?  Can't you respect him and his right to post a wish, without having to display your intolerace in front of all  the community? Do you not feel shame? 

[SharpeXB]

1 minute ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

Ok, you dont like user mods .. I can respect that.

But why are you posting on the wish thread of another user that happens to like user mods?  Can't you respect him and his right to post a wish, without having to display your intolerace in front of all  the community? Do you not feel shame? 

Because as a player I wouldn’t want to encounter these being more widely used online. The topic here seems to advocate ways to promote their use in multiplayer. 

[MAXsenna]

Mods can screw up any aspect of the game including campaigns. Because they aren’t tested like official content is  
 

Again you make assumptions. "Can" is not always.
And again, why do you care anyway?

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[Gunfreak]

33 minutes ago, Nipil said:

 

Honestly, though, ED does this too with almost (?) each OB, and sometimes they don't fix such things for years (the F-5 drivers seem to know that especially well, as does every mission creator). Although I would agree that using mods always adds it's risks, proportional to the mods' quality and quantity. I only use A-4 mod BTW, since it's ptobably only one I find both interesting and good enough.

ED breaks stuff all the time. However bug are usually related to a specific modual or system.

 

The problem with mods is they can screw up things that don't have anything to do with what they screw up.

Why would having a NASAMS modded system cause B17 bombers in a campaign to crash into each other? Nobody knows. But that's apparently what mods can do.

[SharpeXB]

Just now, MAXsenna said:

Again you make assumptions. "Can" is not always.
And again, why do you care anyway?

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Why I care, I just said above. 

“Can” cause problems is enough reason to avoid them. They don’t add enough to the game to be worth the aggravation. 

[Rudel_chw]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Because as a player I wouldn’t want to encounter these being more widely used online.

 

You show your intolerance again: you want the multiplayer crowd to play like you do, nothing else should be allowed ... can't you simply fly on a server that don't employ user mods? They are the majority after all, why you need to remove the option for other DCS users that don't play like you?

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

The problem with mods is they can screw up things that don't have anything to do with what they screw up.

And it can be out of proportion to the scope of the mod or its perceived quality or simplicity. I had a mod in another game that was this simple GUI graphics tweak. Seemingly innocuous. But it dropped my frame rate into single digits. 

[MAXsenna]

Why I care, I just said above. 

“Can” cause problems is enough reason to avoid them. They don’t add enough to the game to be worth the aggravation. 

Again that's your opinion, which is pretty much irrelevant to the users that use mods.
We established years ago that you are against pretty much any wish that comes along.


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And it can be out of proportion to the scope of the mod or its perceived quality or simplicity. I had a mod in another game that was this simple GUI graphics tweak. Seemingly innocuous. But it dropped my frame rate into single digits. 

So, you disabled it then, I hope...

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[SharpeXB]

5 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

You show your intolerance again: you want the multiplayer crowd to play like you do, nothing else should be allowed ... can't you simply fly on a server that don't employ user mods? They are the majority after all, why you need to remove the option for other DCS users that don't play like you?

I probably don’t have much to worry about with regard to mp anyways. I think most sever owners are savvy enough to avoid making their players install these. 
 

Mods also affect everyone since they likely cause the devs a lot more work in responding to bugs, just like the campaign creator above mentioned. The other CFS game had these blocked for a long time in its early development so the team wouldn’t be overwhelmed by bug reports stemming from their use. 

[cfrag]

2 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

Can't you respect him and his right to post a wish, without having to display your intolerace in front of all  the community?

We know that some people have trollish tendencies, and some are additionally afflicted by a total lack of refection, believing that their opinion should be, or in fact is, the correct and only one. 

People may or may not like mods, that is their privilege, and they should act accordingly: ignore them or install them. There is something else that bothers me, though. 

First, since "Unreal Tournament", mods have been proven to be a critical factor when it comes to popularity and appeal of games. They have the ability to draw in a greater variety of players, and provide a vital ecosystem that extends the core game. For decades it has been proven and proven again that games with mod support and a community are more successful and enjoy greater longevity that games that don't. Like them or not, mods a part of DCS's lifeblood. ED understand this and therefore support them

More importantly though:
I believe that someone who calls mods "trash" or "worthless" is merely expressing their own antisocial maladjustment: mods are someone else's work. It doesn't matter if you like a mod or not. The fact is that someone invested time and care to lovingly craft something, and then went the extra mile and shared their work with the community, including you. Whoever denigrates such behavior shows a decided lack of respect, and does not understand that such a self-centered stance highlights their social dysfunction rather than the perceived shortcomings of a shared mod or their creator. You may or may not like a mod, but the fact that someone created one should always be acknowledged as something positive.

So say that you like a mod or not. But don't disrespect someone else's contribution to the community.

[Rudel_chw]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Mods also affect everyone since they likely cause the devs a lot more work in responding to bugs

 

Agree, I wish all users were a bit more cautious when encountering a possible bug, and disabled their user Mods to re-test BEFORE reporting it as a bug. 

But I honestly think that you exagerate a bit with the developer's time,  as a quick view of the user's dcs.log can quickly show if he has user mods active or not, any developer worth its salt wouldn't lose more than a couple of minutes on such a report (like I do when trying to help someone on the forum).

[Rudel_chw]

15 minutes ago, cfrag said:

I believe that someone who calls mods "trash" or "worthless" is merely expressing their own antisocial maladjustment:

 

+1 ... fully agree, I may not like every user mod that I find, just as I may not like a particular skin, or a particular mission, but I fully respect the sharing spirit of their creators. @SharpeXB is really a zero contribution to this community, wonder why the Moderators allow this.

Edited August 17, 2023 by Rudel_chw

[MAXsenna]

2 hours ago, Nipil said:

Most mods are trash (especially those which portray modern stuff... especially those made by some certain ace from a certain Caribbean island).

Better avoid the Skyraider then. 

Mods is not just airframes. I use mods to enhance the game, like assets and fixes that lack in the game. Not to pretend to fly a certain modern airframe. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by MAXsenna

[SharpeXB]

30 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

Agree, I wish all users were a bit more cautious when encountering a possible bug, and disabled their user Mods to re-test BEFORE reporting it as a bug. 

But I honestly think that you exagerate a bit with the developer's time,  as a quick view of the user's dcs.log can quickly show if he has user mods active or not, any developer worth its salt wouldn't lose more than a couple of minutes on such a report (like I do when trying to help someone on the forum).

No doubt the issues that motivated Reflected to make that video and what he had to say about these interfering with bug fixing also applies to DCS as a whole. Sure ED can check a log but mods still increase the number of bug reports they get. They wouldn’t have to keep telling people to uninstall them if it wasn’t continually a problem. They obviously have to weigh any additional work created by mod use against the added appeal they bring for some in selling the game. But dealing with mods likely adds to the development timeline and so affects all of us. Again the other CFS game restricted mods at one point to speed its development. 

[upyr1]

4 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Oh, you mean the mod makers could define what it should be replaced with from the core game? Not bad idea actually. 

I figure a tag in the mod or a server administrator could set it if no tag exists or the admin doesn't like the replacement. Then solo games the player could set their replacement. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by upyr1

[upyr1]

4 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Probably, but it seems to be such a low hanging fruit I gather it must be some other reason. 

This is good question I hope we get an answer in the way of a manager 

[upyr1]

2 hours ago, Nipil said:

Replacing models from mods with models of other assets is just a terrible idea, as it will cause confusion in almost any case. Visual ID, both of friends and foes, visual model not corresponding to collision model.

 

Some replacements would be worse than others, it all depends on the similarities. I'm more interested in a filter 

 

2 hours ago, Nipil said:

But I disagree with the somewhat irrational hate towards modding in general. Most mods are trash (especially those which portray modern stuff... especially those made by some certain ace from a certain Caribbean island). But there are some which really are good. Community A-4E mod is so good it even made it's way into DCS World 2023 and beyond trailer. Not to mention some mainstream Cold War servers. That's not the only example, MB339 and C-130 have long been mods prior to going official. I don't see how people using mods like this harm anyone, and calling such mods "junk" is clearly not appropriate. The aforementioned A-4E is in a better state than official MiG-21 now, it seems, and in some aspects is more realistic. The "headache" part is also somewhat exaggerated, at least if you use a small number of quality mods.

There are some flyable mods out there, that I only use as AI assets, the A-4 is clearly not one of them. There are some mods I will only use as AI assets (the Chinese aircraft pack for one) or the VSN F-105.

Then there are the pure AI assets.