AERGES announces the F-104

[dave76]

...so any new info about release ? i suppose two weeks

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, dave76 said:

i suppose two weeks

 

unlikely, I expect the Mirage F1M to be released first ... looking forward to it  

[dave76]

On 1/17/2025 at 9:13 PM, Rudel_chw said:

 

unlikely, I expect the Mirage F1M to be released first ... looking forward to it  

 Rudel, you know .....two weeks was the usual joke  , aniway didn't they say before christmas it is almost ready ?

Edited January 21 by dave76

[MicMic]

On 12/24/2024 at 8:08 PM, kontiuka said:

 

Very nice, but.. I would like to have the option to fly a brand new aircraft, with an impolute cockpit.

Anyway, it is on my list to buy.

[Rudel_chw]

33 minutes ago, MicMic said:

Very nice, but.. I would like to have the option to fly a brand new aircraft, with an impolute cockpit.

I can imagine it, the new luftwaffe pilot gets asigned his F-104G and then tells his CO he doesnt like the worn cockpit and ask for a brand new one … he would be cleaning baths in no time  

[Dragon1-1]

A US pilot in the '58 wouldn't see the cockpit of his brand new jet all scratched up, though. Aerges had hinted we aren't just getting the G.

Edited February 8 by Dragon1-1

[twistking]

To someone who enjoys analogue aircraft AND complex systems, what interesting avionics and weapon systems would the 104 offer?

How does the radar compare to f.e. the F-5? Does it offer advanced modes? Ground avoidance or mapping?
What navigation systems can we expect? Anything else than INS and Tacan?
Is there any form of precision bombing system, or is it fully manual?

[TLTeo]

In the F-104G:

For air to air it's similar-ish - you have a search mode, manual acquisition, a boresight/dogfight type mode, and STT. Depending on the exact variant/era G aircraft you may or may not have access to choosing between 1 and 2 bar scans.

In air to ground it's in a completely different league from the F-5. The radar has two air go ground mapping modes (depending on beam size - one is more appropriate for high altitude mapping of large areas, one for low altitude), and two ground avoidance modes (terrain avoidance, in which the antenna is stabilized along the flight path direction, and contour mapping, in which it is pitch stabilized). Also, the antenna is not roll-stabilized so that makes things pretty interesting if you're maneuvering at low altitude. Navigation is mostly just INS/TACAN with help from the radar. The F-104 was actually the very first fighter aircraft to fly with an INS. 

Weapons delivery is mostly manual; there is a bomb timer very similar to that in the F-4E, but just like in the Phantom it's most appropriate for either extremely large targets (think bombing in the general direction of an airfield) or nukes (which won't be a thing in DCS - maybe we could get a practice round though, that'd be cool).

I do not have as much info on earlier variants, but I imagine they are much closer to the F-5 (no INS for sure, likely no ground mapping modes or bomb timers, although the C had LABS iirc). The S had a radar with (some) improvement in air to air modes (and a bit more with the ASA upgrade), and eventually had GPS integrated as well with the ASAM upgrade.

Edited February 8 by TLTeo

[twistking]

6 hours ago, TLTeo said:

In the F-104G:

For air to air it's similar-ish - you have a search mode, manual acquisition, a boresight/dogfight type mode, and STT. Depending on the exact variant/era G aircraft you may or may not have access to choosing between 1 and 2 bar scans.

In air to ground it's in a completely different league from the F-5. The radar has two air go ground mapping modes (depending on beam size - one is more appropriate for high altitude mapping of large areas, one for low altitude), and two ground avoidance modes (terrain avoidance, in which the antenna is stabilized along the flight path direction, and contour mapping, in which it is pitch stabilized). Also, the antenna is not roll-stabilized so that makes things pretty interesting if you're maneuvering at low altitude. Navigation is mostly just INS/TACAN with help from the radar. The F-104 was actually the very first fighter aircraft to fly with an INS. 

Weapons delivery is mostly manual; there is a bomb timer very similar to that in the F-4E, but just like in the Phantom it's most appropriate for either extremely large targets (think bombing in the general direction of an airfield) or nukes (which won't be a thing in DCS - maybe we could get a practice round though, that'd be cool).

I do not have as much info on earlier variants, but I imagine they are much closer to the F-5 (no INS for sure, likely no ground mapping modes or bomb timers, although the C had LABS iirc). The S had a radar with (some) improvement in air to air modes (and a bit more with the ASA upgrade), and eventually had GPS integrated as well with the ASAM upgrade.

Thanks for the detailed response. Seems to be an aircraft to look forward to.

How does that bombing timer work?
What about Fox-1 capabilities? I assume only the later Italian air-superiority versions had it?

[TLTeo]

12 hours ago, twistking said:

How does that bombing timer work?

The bomb timer thing basically is made of two timers - a run in timer, and a release timer (although depending on the variant/operator/era the names slightly differ even though the systems do the same exact thing, go figure...). When you're planning your mission you pick an ingress point, an ingress speed, a release maneuver and a release point. You then work out how long it's going to take you to fly from the IP to the release point at your chosen speed, and how long it's going to take you to go from the release point to where the bombs need to come off the aircraft to actually hit your target. You then set those two times on the bomb timers.

When you're flying your mission, once you're over the IP you depress the weapon release button, and the run in timer starts counting down. Once it reaches 0 you're (in theory) over the release point; the gunsight turns off and you hear a sound to warn the pilot, the release timer starts counting down, and you begin your pre-planned release maneuver (say, a 4g pull to 30 degrees nose up or something). Once the release timer reaches 0 the bombs come off the aircraft automatically.  The IP is something you can identify by overflying visually, or with the radar (e.g. once I see this feature at distance x, y degrees to my left/right, I'm over my IP). You can see how all of this wouldn't exactly be great for accurate conventional bombing.

Quote

What about Fox-1 capabilities? I assume only the later Italian air-superiority versions had it?

Roughly half the Italian S had it from the get go - "S" literally stands for "Sparrow", and that version first flew in 1965. You had to remove the gun to carry the CW illuminator to fire it though, so in practice the interceptor squadrons flew with Sparrows and the fighter bomber ones kept the gun (with some exceptions, e.g. when the interceptor folks got hand me down fighter bombers as the Tornado was coming online). The recce squadrons kept the G.

The ASA update in the late 80s/early 90s (among other things) essentially replaced the AIM-7E with the Selenia Aspide, which is based on the AIM-7E but with improved electronics/motor/seeker. It should be somewhere between the AIM-7F/M in terms of capability/performance, and it's still in use to this day as a SAM.

Edited February 9 by TLTeo

[twistking]

30 minutes ago, TLTeo said:

You can see how all of this wouldn't exactly be great for accurate conventional bombing.

I assume it would be good enough for use with laser guided bombs (?).
Definitely sounds interesting!

Edited February 9 by twistking

[TLTeo]

I don't think any F-104 user ever carried LGBs. The timer stuff was mostly for nuclear delivery, or I suppose attacking large targets (think entire airfields) with multiple aircraft. It might be semi passable with area weapons like CBUs (or napalm but that's not happening in DCS for a while if ever). Not that it's going to stop me from trying to lob four Mk-82s on just the right hangar

Edited February 9 by TLTeo

[bies]

On 2/8/2025 at 2:21 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

A US pilot in the '58 wouldn't see the cockpit of his brand new jet all scratched up, though. Aerges had hinted we aren't just getting the G.

The guy must have felt like a king of the skies back then. Initial F-104A was designed by Kelly Johnson's team as an air superiority fighter to combat MiGs, with lessons from Korean War.

In the late 1950s/early 1960s it had phenomenal performance, acceleration, speed, ceiling. The best armament in the world; vulcan gun and two Sidewinders. All this coupled with a good radar for the era.

An ultimate BnZ suite.

Edited March 25 by bies

[Fitzcarraldo]

I've read about the 104 having an IR sensor. Is it comparable to what we now would call IRST. Did it work well?

[Xeemix]

5 hours ago, Fitzcarraldo said:

I've read about the 104 having an IR sensor. Is it comparable to what we now would call IRST. Did it work well?

Very rudimentary in comparison, but also very cool!

[TLTeo]

8 hours ago, Fitzcarraldo said:

Did it work well?

Nope xD

[Yannick Pancake]

If I'm not mistaken, capability wise it was pretty much an Aim 9 seeker mounted to the windscreen.

[TLTeo]

Yep that sounds about right. The F-104G manual cites a 17 degree FoV which is similar to (but smaller than) that of the AIM-B seeker. It'll probably be semi passable for intercepting Soviet bombers at night in good weather though.

[bies]

On 2/10/2025 at 1:04 AM, Fitzcarraldo said:

I've read about the 104 having an IR sensor. Is it comparable to what we now would call IRST. Did it work well?

 

IRST on different US Cold War interceptors (F-101, F-102, F-104, F-106, F-4, F-8, F-14, A-12)

Edited March 25 by bies