ACM Cover Function

[bonesvf103]

What does flipping the ACM cover actually do besides setting the gun to high rate and allowing access to the jettison button?  I question this now because with the cover down, I have still been bale to use PAL, PLM, and VSL HI/LO which are ACM modes, so what does flipping the cover actually do?

v6,

boNes

[ricktoberfest]

7 minutes ago, bonesvf103 said:

What does flipping the ACM cover actually do besides setting the gun to high rate and allowing access to the jettison button?  I question this now because with the cover down, I have still been bale to use PAL, PLM, and VSL HI/LO which are ACM modes, so what does flipping the cover actually do?

v6,

boNes

It also sets your phoenix missile to go active right off the rails 

[Despayre]

8 minutes ago, bonesvf103 said:

What does flipping the ACM cover actually do besides setting the gun to high rate and allowing access to the jettison button?  I question this now because with the cover down, I have still been bale to use PAL, PLM, and VSL HI/LO which are ACM modes, so what does flipping the cover actually do?

v6,

boNes

Pretty sure that makes the Phoenix go active the moment it leaves the rails too.

Just now, ricktoberfest said:

It also sets your phoenix missile to go active right off the rails 

Dammit, beat my by || <-- that much... lol

[bonesvf103]

OK, but so does boresight mode, so why not just hit that?  Also, if the RIO sets missile options to PH ACT, the missile is active off the rails, but only if the target is within 6 miles when on its six or 10 miles if on the target's nose.  As far as Phoenixes go, is flipping the ACM cover up give it any further advantage if there is BRSIT and PH ACT mode available?

v6,

boNes

[captain_dalan]

4 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

OK, but so does boresight mode, so why not just hit that? 

Who knows what were the engineers thinking when they were designing the thing, but at a glance, if nothing else, it does both that and the other things you mentioned. So.... it saves time and switchology? 

[Schmidtfire]

Aside from the "cool factor" of flipping the cover, it has some practical use. Plus you can use ACM jettison if needed. It's a surefire way to know you are
ready for the merge.

ACM cover does the following:

• Engages High Gun rate

• Engages Missile Prep

• Engages SW Cool

• Shortens the time to fire Phoenix and Aim7 missiles from 3 seconds to 1 second.

"If the BRSIT switch is not used or the ACM mode is active the AIM-9 will use the SEAM and set the missile to use the double-D scan pattern. If a WCS target is present the seeker head will scan around the radar or TCS line of sight, otherwise the missile will scan around the ADL."

Edited September 20, 2023 by Schmidtfire

[Dentedend10]

14 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

OK, but so does boresight mode, so why not just hit that?  Also, if the RIO sets missile options to PH ACT, the missile is active off the rails, but only if the target is within 6 miles when on its six or 10 miles if on the target's nose.  As far as Phoenixes go, is flipping the ACM cover up give it any further advantage if there is BRSIT and PH ACT mode available?

v6,

boNes

After having countless ways of disengaging autopilot during ACLS (PLM button, autopilot switch, stick pressure, etc.), I’m not too surprised there is countless ways to set up for a dogfight

[81banana]

OK, but so does boresight mode, so why not just hit that?  Also, if the RIO sets missile options to PH ACT, the missile is active off the rails, but only if the target is within 6 miles when on its six or 10 miles if on the target's nose.  As far as Phoenixes go, is flipping the ACM cover up give it any further advantage if there is BRSIT and PH ACT mode available?
v6,
boNes

In that mode Missiles don’t loft. It affects the flight trajectory of the missiles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bonesvf103]

You mean in boresight mode?  I can understand that, but I don't think they loft in PH ACT mode or with the ACM cover off either.  Besides at range in TWS, I don't think they loft in any other mode but PDSTT at range.

v6,

boNes

[Karon]

Uh, I didn't see this post.
The ACM cover changes the LTE as others have mentioned. Plus, it fires off a non-lofting, "dumb", AIM-54 even if you are in PDSTT, for example. The AIM-7 does not loft either.

I have never used the ACM cover. I never felt the neet, there are, imo, better ways to employ.

[QuiGon]

5 hours ago, Karon said:

The AIM-7 does not loft either.

Uhh, that is interesting. I do have a use for not wanting to loft AIM-7s in certain situations. Are there any other effects of the ACM cover on the AIM-7?

Edited September 22, 2023 by QuiGon

[Karon]

Just now, QuiGon said:

Uhh, that is interesting. I do have a use for not wanting to loft AIM-7s in certain situations. Are there any other effects of the ACM cover on the AIM-7?

 

It prevents the RIO from launching AIM-7/54 (which is awful as only the mature and responsible member of the crew should be allowed to do that! ), but besides that, I don't recall other differences. The difference in distance and speed over time is minimal, though. I have some charts laying somewhere.

[QuiGon]

3 hours ago, Karon said:

It prevents the RIO from launching AIM-7/54 (which is awful as only the mature and responsible member of the crew should be allowed to do that! ), but besides that, I don't recall other differences. The difference in distance and speed over time is minimal, though. I have some charts laying somewhere.

Thanks, not being able to launch the missiles as the RIO is indeed an issue as I'm playing the Tomcat exclusively as the mature and responsible member of thre crew

The difference in distance and speed over time might be minimal, but that minimal difference can decide who wins the fight in head-on engagements.

Edited September 22, 2023 by QuiGon

[Karon]

1 hour ago, QuiGon said:

Thanks, not being able to launch the missiles as the RIO is indeed an issue as I'm playing the Tomcat exclusively as the mature and respinsible member of thre crew

The difference in distance and speed over time might be minimal, but that minimal difference can decide who wins the fight in head-on engagements.

I mean.. on paper yeah, but air combat isn't in a vacuum scenario. Isn't it easier to fly faster, faster or launch earlier?

If you look here: https://flyandwire.com/2023/07/27/missiles-kinematics-part-ii-cold-war-era/
you see that the average difference is what, 1000 m at impact? I wouldn't bet my skin on those metres tbh.

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, Karon said:

I mean.. on paper yeah, but air combat isn't in a vacuum scenario. Isn't it easier to fly faster, faster or launch earlier?

If you look here: https://flyandwire.com/2023/07/27/missiles-kinematics-part-ii-cold-war-era/
you see that the average difference is what, 1000 m at impact? I wouldn't bet my skin on those metres tbh.

Flying faster or launching earlier is often not an option, so why throw a 1000m advantage away if it doesn't cost you anything?

[Karon]

14 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

Flying faster or launching earlier is often not an option, so why throw a 1000m advantage away if it doesn't cost you anything?

That's assuming the other target flies straight into the Sparrow, though. If it manoeuvres, the loft allows it to cash-in more energy from the dive and chase the target. Same for cranking targets.

If I really wanted to min-max, then I would use the ACM cover + a bit of manual loft. It's more gentle than the loft of MH/P climb-wise, but it provides similar advantages with little to no losses. Btw, the correct answer to the solution you described is "not being there". Unless it is a threat call, you should have positioned yourself better.

[QuiGon]

2 minutes ago, Karon said:

That's assuming the other target flies straight into the Sparrow, though. If it manoeuvres, the loft allows it to cash-in more energy from the dive and chase the target. Same for cranking targets.

If I really wanted to min-max, then I would use the ACM cover + a bit of manual loft. It's more gentle than the loft of MH/P climb-wise, but it provides similar advantages with little to no losses. Btw, the correct answer to the solution you described is "not being there". Unless it is a threat call, you should have positioned yourself better.

I have a feeling we're flying in very different environments...

[Karon]

3 hours ago, QuiGon said:

I have a feeling we're flying in very different environments...

Shtap hiding in the mountains, you are not a Tornado (yet)!

Jokes aside, if I find the will (because for once I have time), I can make a bunch of tests and measure the performance difference in a non-sterile scenario.

[Naquaii]

On 9/20/2023 at 5:27 PM, bonesvf103 said:

What does flipping the ACM cover actually do besides setting the gun to high rate and allowing access to the jettison button?  I question this now because with the cover down, I have still been bale to use PAL, PLM, and VSL HI/LO which are ACM modes, so what does flipping the cover actually do?

v6,

boNes

The cover is basically a short cut for setting up the WCS for ACM. I.e. activating the missiles, setting gun to high etc.

The only unique functions with the cover up are that if the AIM-54 is launched at a target within 15 degrees of boresight the LTE will be 1 sec instead of 3 secs and that the WCS automatically selects BRSIT if no track is present.

The quick acquisition modes are available regardless and ACM is possible without the use of the ACM cover as the switch itself is just the above mentioned presets and those two functions.

Edited September 24, 2023 by Naquaii

[Spartan111sqn]

40 minutes ago, Naquaii said:

The cover is basically a short cut for setting up the WCS for ACM. I.e. activating the missiles, setting gun to high etc.

The only unique functions with the cover up are that if the AIM-54 is launched at a target within 15 degrees of boresight the LTE will be 1 sec instead of 3 secs and that the WCS automatically selects BRSIT if no track is present.

The quick acquisition modes are available regardless and ACM is possible without the use of the ACM cover as the switch itself is just the above mentioned presets and those two functions.

 

and about the loft on aim7/54?

[Naquaii]

12 minutes ago, Spartan111sqn said:

and about the loft on aim7/54?

Yeah, that's true. That's also regulated via the ACM-cover. Easy to forget as that normally doesn't really matter for the intended use. Thanks!

[bonesvf103]

Thanks for summarizing and simplifying things, Naquaii.

If I have the cover down, and I get a PDSTT lock and fire the Phoenix, then the lock is broken, is it that the AIM-54C will then go active and try to find the target on its own, but the AIM-54A will not unless I reacquire the lock?

How about if I have the cover down, have a PSTT lock (like from VSL Hi or LO, PAL , PLM), fire, and then the lock is broken?  Is it the same?  If it's an AIM-54C it will go active and try to find the target but if AIM-54A it is trashed unless I happen to reacquire the lock?

I'm also trying to also determine when the Phoenix basically becomes an expensive Sparrow, ie, when I have a lock and fire, and am required to guide it all the way to the target.  Is that only in the case of an AIM-54A?

Thanks.

v6,

boNes

[WarthogOsl]

10 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

I'm also trying to also determine when the Phoenix basically becomes an expensive Sparrow, ie, when I have a lock and fire, and am required to guide it all the way to the target.  Is that only in the case of an AIM-54A?

 

With the A fired in PD-STT mode, yes, it's a big Sparrow.  The C can go active automatically if the F-14 loses the PD-STT lock (though I've heard this is not accurate to real life).

[draconus]

18 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

I'm also trying to also determine when the Phoenix basically becomes an expensive Sparrow

It never becomes "Sparrow" - different flight profile, mass, maneuverability, warhead, etc.

If you ask when Phoenix is SARH it's in PD-STT and A verison only.

18 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

How about if I have the cover down, have a PSTT lock (like from VSL Hi or LO, PAL , PLM), fire, and then the lock is broken?  Is it the same?  If it's an AIM-54C it will go active and try to find the target but if AIM-54A it is trashed unless I happen to reacquire the lock?

All P-STT shots are active off the rails, the missile will just take english bias from the track at launch.

And I don't think reaacquiring the STT lock will help - A is already trashed, C is already active.

Edited September 27, 2023 by draconus

[bonesvf103]

5 hours ago, draconus said:

It never becomes "Sparrow" - different flight profile, mass, maneuverability, warhead, etc.

If you ask when Phoenix is SARH it's in PD-STT and A verison only.

All P-STT shots are active off the rails, the missile will just take english bias from the track at launch.

And I don't think reaacquiring the STT lock will help - A is already trashed, C is already active.

 

When I said basically an expensive Sparrow, I was speaking metaphorically.  I was referring to how you have to guide it all the way to the target like a Sparrow except that Sparrows don't cost $1.5 million each hence the "expensive" part.

Thanks for the info, but what is "English bias?"

v6,

boNes

13 hours ago, WarthogOsl said:

With the A fired in PD-STT mode, yes, it's a big Sparrow.  The C can go active automatically if the F-14 loses the PD-STT lock (though I've heard this is not accurate to real life).

Can it be fired in P-STT?  Do the same rules apply (break lock= "A" is trashed and "C" goes active)?

v6,

boNes