F-14 Factory Clean Cockpit Mod

[draconus]

7 hours ago, Kageseigi said:

If it we had just a static screen like in the old 80's and 90's flight sims, instrument visibility wouldn't be a problem, though awareness of surroundings would be. But now, we have much better visibility of what's around us, but we lose that instrument visibility.

No, we don't lose at all. It's as close to RL as hardware (screen size and resolution) and gfx engine allows (still lacking some lighting effects or lights dynamic range). The real looking cockpits started to show in simulators only in late 90s. Before it was just info bars and fictional pictures due to hardware limitations.

Monitors/projectors: We have high resolution big screens now that can show almost 1:1 scale in retinal res. That of course depends on your fov, screen size and distance from eyes.

VR: We have a high fov good resolution HMDs but it's still not enough to be considered very close to RL. We're getting there but for the simulation/game purposes it was enough even a few years before.

7 hours ago, Kageseigi said:

Virtual reality users always have to deal with it due to the extremely limited FOV.

Again, no, it's not yet RL full fov, but it's getting wider and wider. Most of the high angle IRL is just for the movement detection and speed sensation anyway. FOV is not a big VR problem.

[Rhrich]

On 10/3/2023 at 5:01 PM, draconus said:

Interesting. You want artists to make things look great on old hardware, low resolution and poor graphic settings? Remember this technique called squint your eyes?

Haven’t anyone told you keyboard warriors that if you haven’t got something reasonable or valid to say you should stay silent?

Try to be a bit more civilised in the future, and if you don’t have a few thousand hours in one, don’t tell me how a cockpit should look.  

If you can’t behave I’m sure there is a Barbie or Lego forum more suitable to your maturity level. 

[draconus]

10 minutes ago, Rhrich said:

...if you don’t have a few thousand hours in one, don’t tell me how a cockpit should look.

People have a weird tendency to believe the devs, SMEs and confirmed pilots rather than a random internet anon.

[Rhrich]

On 10/5/2023 at 12:53 PM, draconus said:

People have a weird tendency to believe the devs, SMEs and confirmed pilots rather than a random internet anon.

Damn, you replied 12 minutes after my post. If you’re  on the forum that often you can at least take your time to read my post, because you’ve clearly either misunderstood it or misread it on purpose. 
 

I’ll help you out:

1: Government property isn’t always well looked after. Some tomcats looked and smelled badly. We all agree on that. However, Tomcats weren’t much worse than other airframes with same amount of use. Therefore:
 

2: The approach to recreating this in a sim differ. In my view others have done this better than Heatblur. Take the F-5 or F-16. I’ve seen very worn down cockpits in both, much worse than the one in game. 
 

3: I Read my point about visibility once more, perhaps you’ll get it this time. 
 

4: The only thing I would state is unrealistic about the cockpit in the 14 is the screens. There’s no way screens that crisp went with a cockpit that worn. At least, that wasn’t the norm. From what I’ve heard most where burnt in to some degree and adjusting them wasn’t easy. 
Luckily they haven’t pursued this, it would make the game unplayable. 
 

5. If the publisher really thinks is going to take that much time to make a better looking cockpit the answer seems obvious: Buy the rights to this mod, improve it, make some changes and call it a day. There can’t be any money in spending a lot of man hours recreating something the average player can get for free. 

 

[freehand]

On 10/5/2023 at 11:41 AM, Rhrich said:

Haven’t anyone told you keyboard warriors that if you haven’t got something reasonable or valid to say you should stay silent?

Try to be a bit more civilised in the future, and if you don’t have a few thousand hours in one, don’t tell me how a cockpit should look.  

If you can’t behave I’m sure there is a Barbie or Lego forum more suitable to your maturity level. 

ops.

Edited October 9, 2023 by freehand

[draconus]

7 hours ago, Rhrich said:

The only thing I would state is unrealistic about the cockpit in the 14 is the screens. There’s no way screens that crisp went with a cockpit that worn. At least, that wasn’t the norm. From what I’ve heard most where burnt in to some degree and adjusting them wasn’t easy.

@IronMike Can you confirm? Do you consider applying some burnt displays effect?

[Naquaii]

12 hours ago, Rhrich said:

4: The only thing I would state is unrealistic about the cockpit in the 14 is the screens. There’s no way screens that crisp went with a cockpit that worn. At least, that wasn’t the norm. From what I’ve heard most where burnt in to some degree and adjusting them wasn’t easy. 
Luckily they haven’t pursued this, it would make the game unplayable. 

One does not exclude the other, but yeah, some sort of screen wear could be a feature for future products.

 

12 hours ago, Rhrich said:

5. If the publisher really thinks is going to take that much time to make a better looking cockpit the answer seems obvious: Buy the rights to this mod, improve it, make some changes and call it a day. There can’t be any money in spending a lot of man hours recreating something the average player can get for free. 

I'm not speaking for Cobra but knowing him if a cockpit option for a less worn cockpit was to be added he'd want to make it inhouse and to our quality standards, it's as simple as that.

[Rhrich]

7 hours ago, Naquaii said:

One does not exclude the other, but yeah, some sort of screen wear could be a feature for future products.

That’s fine, if you make it an option. 
Please remember that while a flight sim is far easier than flying the real thing in a lot of aspects.* Sims of modern fighters by necessity also end up being a simulation of operating a computer, without a proper interface and without looking directly at the screens. I.E.: It’s a lot harder to operate and view than the real thing.

*The first thing anyone making a “real as possible” flight sim should do is to severely restrict head movement at high Gs. The second is to intrude genuine fear

[Naquaii]

34 minutes ago, Rhrich said:

That’s fine, if you make it an option. 
Please remember that while a flight sim is far easier than flying the real thing in a lot of aspects.* Sims of modern fighters by necessity also end up being a simulation of operating a computer, without a proper interface and without looking directly at the screens. I.E.: It’s a lot harder to operate and view than the real thing.

*The first thing anyone making a “real as possible” flight sim should do is to severely restrict head movement at high Gs. The second is to intrude genuine fear

The problem is doing that in VR, for most people that would be an instant vomit comet.

[speed-of-heat]

39 minutes ago, Naquaii said:

The problem is doing that in VR, for most people that would be an instant vomit comet.

I think the point he is trying to make that computer games are always a compromise between playability and realism... Rather than taking his point as a suggestion...

 

[Rhrich]

6 minutes ago, speed-of-heat said:

I think the point he is trying to make that computer games are always a compromise between playability and realism... Rather than taking his point as a suggestion...

 

Correct. 
You could also get more realism if you add fear by having electrodes attached to your balls that gave you a shock if you crashed. But I’m not suggesting that either. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Rhrich

[Naquaii]

16 minutes ago, speed-of-heat said:

I think the point he is trying to make that computer games are always a compromise between playability and realism... Rather than taking his point as a suggestion...

 

 

10 minutes ago, Rhrich said:

Correct. 
You could also get more realism if you add fear by having electrodes attached to your balls that gave you a shock if you crashed. But I’m not suggesting that either. 

 

The problem is that there are people asking for stuff like this for real so you kinda have to take it at face value.

[draconus]

1 hour ago, Rhrich said:

Sims of modern fighters by necessity also end up being a simulation of operating a computer, without a proper interface and without looking directly at the screens. I.E.: It’s a lot harder to operate and view than the real thing.

What's so hard to operate and view in the Tomcat? It's far from being modern flying computer.

[Kageseigi]

3 hours ago, Naquaii said:

 

The problem is that there are people asking for stuff like this for real so you kinda have to take it at face value.

Yeah, I would advise for caution with such things. There's realism and then there's realism.

For example, the Forge elements. The wire and tape are there to prevent the buttons from falling out. To see the wire and tape makes perfect sense to see. But I would certainly suggest against coding in the ability to cut the wire or rip the tape off, and have the buttons fall in the floor for the sake of realism. Real pilots may have had to make a struggle to pick up and replace the buttons at some point (leading to the necessity of the wire and tape), but that's completely unnecessary for a DCS player.

Would I be upset if such a "feature" were to appear in the next patch? Only if I had to actually deal with it. I don't want to have to pull out the tape before every mission. And I don't want to have to bind more keys to pick up loose buttons. If somebody wanted to do so, then I'm not against options in the menu to allow them to. But I don't think it should be the default experience for a player.

I'd much rather have more enjoyable features such as the Walkman, thank you! If securing buttons to a plane is what someone wants to do, I'm sure there's some "Airplane Maintenance Simulator" game out there. Pilots had to do many things that are not currently possible in DCS (both in the plane and out)... but I'm sure glad I don't have to do them... simulated or not.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Kageseigi

[MAXsenna]

Stimulating being able to pick up something off the floor would probably be incorrect too, as I'm pretty sure that no F-14 pilot have ever been able to reach to the floor. Only creature I can think of that might able, would be a man of the forest if they could actually fit in the cockpit that is.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[freehand]

4 hours ago, Rhrich said:

Correct. 
You could also get more realism if you add fear by having electrodes attached to your balls that gave you a shock if you crashed. But I’m not suggesting that either. 

 

Rhrich sorry buddy I never read the entire thread and jumped in with 2 big feet lol I have with drawn my sarcastic comment, 

[draconus]

5 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Stimulating being able to pick up something off the floor would probably be incorrect too

Easy peasy, go ballistic, when a piece is floating nearby grab it.

[MAXsenna]

Easy peasy, go ballistic, when a piece is floating nearby grab it.

Haha! 'Course. Better hope it's not wedged somewhere it shouldn't be then...

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[zildac]

12 hours ago, Rhrich said:

Correct. 
You could also get more realism if you add fear by having electrodes attached to your balls that gave you a shock if you crashed. But I’m not suggesting that either. 

 

Now that's a mod that could make some money!

[Hiob]

31 minutes ago, zildac said:

Now that's a mod that could make some money!

I can think of an easier way to make the hardcore realism-crowd happy: Make them buy the module all over again after they crashed or bent it.  

Or at least make them pay for the maintenance... 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Hiob

[zildac]

I can think of an easier way to make the hardcore realism-crowd happy: Make them buy the module all over again after they crashed or bent it.  
Or at least make them pay for the maintenance... 

[MAXsenna]

 

59 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Or at least make them pay for the maintenance... 

 

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by MAXsenna

[Rhrich]

21 hours ago, Naquaii said:

 

The problem is that there are people asking for stuff like this for real so you kinda have to take it at face value.

I’ll promise you Sir: If you make an electrode-to-balls add on you’re going to get a lot of new, but weird, customers. You’ll probably be surprised by their follow up requests though. 

21 hours ago, draconus said:

What's so hard to operate and view in the Tomcat? It's far from being modern flying computer.

Still not reading before you write? Honestly, Naquaii is doing a good job representing his/her company, but it would be easier without it’s groupie.

I’ll spell it out for you one last time:

Nothing, because the screens are crystal clear. If they try to make them burned out it’s going to be hard in VR, therefore, I hope they’ll make it optional if they do. 
But, all cockpit interactions in a sim on is trickier than in the real thing - unless you’ve got something like a professional sim with wrap around screens and a full cockpit. 

 

17 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Stimulating being able to pick up something off the floor would probably be incorrect too, as I'm pretty sure that no F-14 pilot have ever been able to reach to the floor. Only creature I can think of that might able, would be a man of the forest if they could actually fit in the cockpit that is.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

Long time ago, so my memory might be off but the 14s cockpit is roomy enough. And it would surprise me if USN pilots was strapped in tight the whole time…

 

9 hours ago, Hiob said:

I can think of an easier way to make the hardcore realism-crowd happy: Make them buy the module all over again after they crashed or bent it.  

Or at least make them pay for the maintenance... 

 

Probably better than my suggestion. 
Or, make them take compulsory training. 
Point is, there isn’t a “real” simulator anywhere. It’s always compromises. And that should include things like the readability of cockpit instruments and screens. 
 

That said, modifications is an excellent concept and if the makers allow this thing to to be used I think we should be happy and don’t bug them with anything more. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Rhrich

[Hiob]

@Rhrich Don’t be mistaken. While I like to poke holes in the self-contradictory nature of the „realism“-fetish that some display, I am also a big believer in the artistic freedom of the creators and a more humble approach of making wishes instead of demands…. also I personally don’t have or see a problem with the Tomcat workplace environment. (I wouldn’t mind a cleaner version also, I just figure it not important to be honest)

Edited October 9, 2023 by Hiob

[7HUNDERH0R53]

I appreciate anyone that has the gumption to create custom cockpits. I'm a traditional artist by profession and also have spent a LOT of time in photoshop as well. I feel that Heatblur does a phenomenal job with every aspect of their modules and, to me, the Tomcat is stellar. I appreciate the fact that it shows the wear and tear of the Turkey's long history, complete with fading text, etc. I prefer the modules with a more lived in look anyway. Understandably, I can totally see why people want a a clean cockpit and I applaud DSPlayer for taking the initiative. That said, my only gripe about mods like this is when all the surface texture inherent in the panels is taken away and the result has a cartoonish look and all realism is lost.

For example, Here is a portion of the original cockpit...

Here is the same portion of modded clean cockpit. The text looks great, but the panels surfaces are flat and lose the tangibility of the original.

A good compromise would be cleaning up the panels and text without sacrificing some of the look and age of the panels like this...

Obviously, this is just my two cents and everyone can say I'm a jerk or whatever. Regardless, happy flying to everyone and and thanks to Heatblur and DSPlayer for their approaches to this fine bird!

Edited October 20, 2023 by 7HUNDERH0R53