resolved New spotting is great / New spotting is overcooked feedback thread

[Tippis]

10 minutes ago, James DeSouza said:

It is not possible to force spotting to be similar across resolutions. 

Sure it is. You just need to decide on a couple of thresholds as far as minimal (and maximum) size and rendering distances, and not naively let the renderer do whatever it wants and is capable of on a given resolution.

10 minutes ago, James DeSouza said:

For example even if you have two players who have the exact same screen size, the exact same display settings, the exact same eyesight and distance from the screen etc, the player with the more expensive screen will have an advantage due to better pixel response times (ie less ghosting) (or possibly the artefacts from the lower quality screen will give the lower quality screen user the advantage, I don't know).  And this is just one very specific issue.

None of that keeps spotting from being similar.

10 minutes ago, James DeSouza said:

the focus should instead either be on a system which looks visually best (ie closest to reality) or on a system which involves no arbitrary determinations and so is objective (which would be just models scaling into invisibility according to the game's perspective).

In other words, the goal should be to make spotting similar across resolutions, and not let something as arbitrary as resolution determine model scaling limits. Instead, those limits need to be fixed and determined beforehand, and the rendering limits on the hardware be calculated from there.

Doing the opposite — having the user's equipment be the deciding factor and the source of limits — is as far from objective as it ever can be.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

8 hours ago, LeCuvier said:

Real pilots don't look at a PC monitor. This issue is about rendering objects in a way that simmers have a chance to see them.

This doesn’t mean however that things which could barely be seen IRL should be easily seen in the game. That’s the effect you get with a big black dot.

1 hour ago, James DeSouza said:

When you have, for example, multiple F-15 pilots saying that the absolute maximum they have ever seen another fighter, which happened to be another F-15 and so a very large fighter, was 15 miles during training and they say even then that the only reason they were able to see it was because there was a HUD box around it

This is in fact exactly what I get in 2.8 using a 4K screen. Aircraft like that are barely visible and you’d only see that with a cue on it. They don’t appear as big dots. 

[Tippis]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

This doesn’t mean however that things which could barely be seen IRL should be easily seen in the game. That’s the effect you get with a big black dot.

Not really, no. At least not categorically so as has been amply demonstrated.

But then again, that all depends on what you mean by “big black dots”, because you have to be pretty close to aircraft for them to be represented that way — it only really happens at distances where they wouldn't be barely visible IRL either, so it works out either way.

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

This is in fact exactly what I get in 2.8 using a 4K screen. Aircraft like that are barely visible and you’d only see that with a cue on it. They don’t appear as big dots. 

The good news is, they don't appear as big dots in 2.9 either. They appear as very tiny dots — almost as tiny as they can be on a regular display — and at that range, they're also heavily aliased and faded into the background, making them smaller, less dot-like, and far from black. VR is a different matter, and it sounds a bit like they have been scaled to match the resolution rather than the actual field of view there.

The problem you had in 2.8 on a 4K screen was that aircraft would be still barely visible when they should long since have become completely invisible. You even used that case yourself as an example why people with lower resolutions shouldn't complain and that spotting was actually working perfectly, even though it was patently absurd at what distances they were drawn. But then, of course, you learned that lower resolution offered different advantages than the ones you had, and suddenly it was a huge problem…

On top of that was the further problem that this thread has highlighted, where some people play on TVs — a display type that is… let's call it suboptimal — for display quality and which will make things stand out far more than they should, so you ended up with a double advantage. The TV problem is hard to fix in software. That's more of a user error. But that doesn't mean that the software can't create a good foundation so that, with proper calibration, even such bad display hardware can deliver decent results.

[okopanja]

Dudes, how about both stopping at this. We all know it's not good enough and that this is just first iteration.

Let's wait for the next version ED releases.

[BIGNEWY]

 

Reopened. Thread cleaned.

Folks please if you have given your feedback please take a break, the back and forth between some is getting out of hand. 

When posting remember the rules at the top of the page, in particular 

1.1 no profanity, 1.2 treat people with respect and 1.10

Product feedback and constructive criticism is encouraged when provided in a mature and courteous manner. However, feedback that is abusive, insulting or condescending is not welcome. Additionally, to bring up a particular issue repeatedly after it has already been acknowledged will be considered "trolling" - in such cases a warning will be issued to the author and the post will be removed.

thank you

 

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

Lots has already been said (and honestly, I haven't looked at everything on the "dots" subject) but I came across an issue tonight...

• On one server, Wolfpack Warbirds, I was seeing the dots and was able to turn them off and on using a bound button (same as LShft + F10). None of my squad mates were able to turn them off with the same keypress.
• On another server, [4ya] Overlord WW2, nothing I did brought the dots on while all of my squad were able to see them. This puts me at a distinct disadvantage against other players who CAN see these dots.

My settings have ALL labels on. I can turn all labels (including the 2.9 dots) on and off with the bound button in SP. I'm not sure which servers may let me turn them on / off since I haven't done much more testing. It does seem that there must be something peculiar to one of my lua files, probably config and maybe interacting with a particular server settings. 

“DotRendererExperiment = False” /True, or any other version of uppercase / lowercase or blank has no effect. 

I am using Reverb G2 but so were other squad members.

Hoping for a resolution in the next update. I do appreciate the efforts by the Dev team.

[Tippis]

8 hours ago, II.JG1_Vonrd said:

Lots has already been said (and honestly, I haven't looked at everything on the "dots" subject) but I came across an issue tonight...

• On one server, Wolfpack Warbirds, I was seeing the dots and was able to turn them off and on using a bound button (same as LShft + F10). None of my squad mates were able to turn them off with the same keypress.
• On another server, [4ya] Overlord WW2, nothing I did brought the dots on while all of my squad were able to see them. This puts me at a distinct disadvantage against other players who CAN see these dots.

My settings have ALL labels on. I can turn all labels (including the 2.9 dots) on and off with the bound button in SP. I'm not sure which servers may let me turn them on / off since I haven't done much more testing. It does seem that there must be something peculiar to one of my lua files, probably config and maybe interacting with a particular server settings.

The first case sounds a lot like the server was running with a forced label setting, possibly with some custom labels.
The second sounds like labels were forced off.

The difference between you and your squad, and also between the servers intuitively feels like it's the difference between graphics settings. When they couldn't see the dots you were seeing in the first case, it would be because the dot labels are defined so small as to be sensitive to various AA and scaling settings, and yours make it so they don't get aliased to the same degree as with the other guys (so for them, labels on mostly just replicates the spotting dots).

The mystery then would be the second case, but a pure hypothetical would be that you and your squad are describing different dots: i.e. they meant they could see the spotting dots, whereas you meant you couldn't see the dot labels, and behind the ambiguous language, both of you were looking at the same thing, or possibly that once again it didn't make any difference on their part because both types showed up largely the same regardless.

 

Basically, it's a four-square matrix (and the forum table management is too horrid to truly make it into one)

• You can turn dots on and off and see the difference -> dot labels are in play, and some unknown setting on your end makes them distinct from spotting dots.
• Dot labels are in play, but the other guys can't see the difference -> some unknown setting on their end makes them indistinct from spotting dots.
• You seemingly can't turn dots on and off, and they are distinct on your system -> dot labels are not in play, and you're only seeing spotting dots.
• They are seeing dots but you can't -> the unknown setting that makes them indistinct on their systems makes spotting dots show up more for them than for you.

…and so the hunt for the unknown setting(s) begin.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Tippis

[Why485]

11 hours ago, II.JG1_Vonrd said:

Lots has already been said (and honestly, I haven't looked at everything on the "dots" subject) but I came across an issue tonight...

• On one server, Wolfpack Warbirds, I was seeing the dots and was able to turn them off and on using a bound button (same as LShft + F10). None of my squad mates were able to turn them off with the same keypress.
• On another server, [4ya] Overlord WW2, nothing I did brought the dots on while all of my squad were able to see them. This puts me at a distinct disadvantage against other players who CAN see these dots.

My settings have ALL labels on. I can turn all labels (including the 2.9 dots) on and off with the bound button in SP. I'm not sure which servers may let me turn them on / off since I haven't done much more testing. It does seem that there must be something peculiar to one of my lua files, probably config and maybe interacting with a particular server settings. 

“DotRendererExperiment = False” /True, or any other version of uppercase / lowercase or blank has no effect. 

I am using Reverb G2 but so were other squad members.

Hoping for a resolution in the next update. I do appreciate the efforts by the Dev team.

There is a label option called "Dot Neutral" which confusingly uses the label system to draw dots. These labels are completely independent of the "visibility" dots, and function differently from them as well, so sometimes label dots are visible when the visibility dots aren't, and vice versa. For example, the dot neutral labels can be seen through the cockpit and clouds like any any other label setting. You can enable/disable label dots at will with the Left Shift F10 if they are being forced on by the server, or you have them on locally.

4YA Overlord forces all labels to off which means the only thing visible there will be the visibility dots. Wolf Pack Warbirds forces Dot Neutral labels to on, which is why you could turn those on/off.

[II.JG1_Vonrd]

4 hours ago, Why485 said:

4YA Overlord forces all labels to off which means the only thing visible there will be the visibility dots. Wolf Pack Warbirds forces Dot Neutral labels to on, which is why you could turn those on/off.

Makes sense but still wondering why the others could see visibility dots and I couldn't on 4YA. Must be something in MY settings. Any ideas which lua files I should look at?

7 hours ago, Tippis said:

both of you were looking at the same thing, or possibly that once again it didn't make any difference on their part because both types showed up largely the same regardless.

I don't think that's the case since we were comparing on both servers. Distance spotting was pretty much the same on Wolfpack while on 4YA the others spotted at vastly further distances than me. Everyone describes the dots as "oil smudges" which indicates that we are describing the same thing.

[Tippis]

25 minutes ago, II.JG1_Vonrd said:

Makes sense but still wondering why the others could see visibility dots and I couldn't on 4YA. Must be something in MY settings. Any ideas which lua files I should look at?

I don't think that's the case since we were comparing on both servers. Distance spotting was pretty much the same on Wolfpack while on 4YA the others spotted at vastly further distances than me. Everyone describes the dots as "oil smudges" which indicates that we are describing the same thing.

Well, that description fits what I've seen from the spotting dots in VR so that part scans. As for the difference in distance, that can be affected by a number of different graphics settings. By the sound of it, and especially with your further clarification, it seems more like you've managed to make yours more faded than they have. The base resolution shouldn't matter since you're all on the same display hardware, but behind that, there's still stuff like oversampling and AA (and just plain old draw distance to make background clutter show up differently) and the like to create differences.

They could see the dots because whatever settings they use emphasise the spotting dots to where they look pretty much the same as dot labels, whereas your setup makes them appear very differently. To be clear, it's not straight up a “your setting” or “their setting” thing — it's the difference between the two. And since we're talking about VR, it's not just the in-game settings that can impact this and need to be compared to figure out what's causing this.

The more problematic (as in “difficult to track down and determine”, not as “it's a problem that has a clear-cut solution”) explanation would be one of habit and expectation. If you're used to running full labels, and those occasionally get downgraded to dot labels on some servers, you may have accustomed yourself to a certain look when trying to spot far-away targets. If they aren't, they might not, and are thus more used to seeing what the spotting dots produce. In this case, it's less about settings and more about what you expect to see and react to compared to what they react to and interpret as far off contacts.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Tippis

[cw4ogden]

Forgive me if it's been mentioned in the 16 previous pages of posts, but it seems like the main complaint is balancing dot size amongst various screen resolutions. 
Is there any reason DCS can not look to see what resolution the player is running and scale the dot appropriately? 

Preferably with the ability to tweak it slightly for variations in gear, i.e. screen size.

[Smokin Hole]

Put me in the camp as being one who thinks this new spotting is the worst thing to happen to DCS in years.  Seeing giant black and grey squares flying around is a laughable immersion breaker.  But reading the positive responses to the squares mean they are a positive change for many.  That's great!  if the autoexec.cfg workaround worked, we could all be happy.  (Well OK, universal happiness in DCS is impossible.  But most of us could be happy.)

[Buzz313th]

13 minutes ago, Smokin Hole said:

Put me in the camp as being one who thinks this new spotting is the worst thing to happen to DCS in years.  Seeing giant black and grey squares flying around is a laughable immersion breaker.  But reading the positive responses to the squares mean they are a positive change for many.  That's great!  if the autoexec.cfg workaround worked, we could all be happy.  (Well OK, universal happiness in DCS is impossible.  But most of us could be happy.)

The latest 2.9 beta update gave us an option under "Gameplay" to turn off the new spotting logic and revert to the previous logic. 

[TheFreshPrince]

Which will simply put you into a huge disadvantage in multiplayer. 

[Cgjunk2]

7 hours ago, Buzz313th said:

The latest 2.9 beta update gave us an option under "Gameplay" to turn off the new spotting logic and revert to the previous logic. 

I was very happy to see this, unfortunately turning the dots off had no effect.  I can still see airplanes and ground units as big black dots all over the place.  
 

I guess I don’t understand why such a prominent visual aid is “on” by default.  This aid makes it impossible to lose sight of an aircraft that should be extremely difficult to see.  If hardware or a person’s vision makes the sim unenjoyable, then  having this as an accessibility options is great.  But I enjoy looking for and trying to maintain sight of others as a core part of this whole flight simming thing, even as my eyes age.   Air combat simulation , especially within normal visual range, should primarily be about training the eye to acquire and maintain sight.  If feels odd that it’s no longer part of the DCS experience by default.  

Just because something is within visual range does not mean it will be easy to see, and that you can’t easily lose sight of it when you do.   Right now, the default setting makes losing sight impossible, or at least turns it into a trivial problem.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Cgjunk2

[corvey]

Playing in 4k, I can tell you that distinguishing from a from a spec of dust and a single pixel plane on a 55" screen is near impossible and 99 times out of 100 it's the former.  This spotting issue has been an issue for me for long time.  The new spotting feature was SPOT ON!  Make it even better with toggles on and off with size sliders for solo and multiplayer servers!  This will please everyone!   Is has been needed for a long time!   THANKS!

 

 

 

  

[Larzei]

1 hour ago, corvey said:

Playing in 4k, I can tell you that distinguishing from a from a spec of dust and a single pixel plane on a 55" screen is near impossible and 99 times out of 100 it's the former.  This spotting issue has been an issue for me for long time.  The new spotting feature was SPOT ON!  Make it even better with toggles on and off with size sliders for solo and multiplayer servers!  This will please everyone!   Is has been needed for a long time!   THANKS!

 

 

 

  

Totally agree! Got a 42'' monitor and run DCS in 2k and the new spotting system is a big step forward. I know scaling of objects is out of the question in this generation of DCS but at least the new dots makes it possible to overcome! 

[Why485]

4 hours ago, Cgjunk2 said:

I was very happy to see this, unfortunately turning the dots off had no effect.  I can still see airplanes and ground units as big black dots all over the place. 

FYI the setting doesn't take effect until you restart DCS.

[SharpeXB]

5 hours ago, TheFreshPrince said:

Which will simply put you into a huge disadvantage in multiplayer. 

Yes, this needs to be a server/mission setting. 

[Talisman_VR]

I am in this for MP and the new spotting system has ruined MP for me.  I have been informed that this spotting dot is handled by the player side not server side for MP, so we have a very poor situation at the moment IMHO.  

I felt we were nearer to a level playing field before, but since the new spotting dot it is shockingly bad how things have turned out and it is really the worst thing to happen to DCS in my view.  

I would not have pre ordered the Phantom if I had known about this spotting dot travesty.  

To say that I am extremely disappointed is an understatement.  These large black smudgy squares that can been seen for miles and miles and then disappear and reappear are truly awful and very off-putting.  Also, the black smudgy squares do not allow the aircraft type to be identified at all.  Appalling! 

I thing this issue is doing great damage to the DCS brand.

Talisman

Edited November 18, 2023 by Talisman_VR

[Tippis]

5 minutes ago, Talisman_VR said:

I am in this for MP and the new spotting system has ruined MP for me.  I have been informed that this spotting dot is handled by the player side not server side for MP, so we have a very poor situation at the moment IMHO.  

I felt we were nearer to a level playing field before, but since the new spotting dot it is shockingly bad how things have turned out and it is really the worst thing to happen to DCS in my view.  

It varies with the player and their setup, and as such needs to be handled like any other graphics option. Otherwise you end up with a situation where the server enforces disadvantages on some players and enforces advantages on others, which is arguably the worst outcome possible. It would be like the server deciding that, no, you can't play in 4K or in VR because you might (and it is might, not will) see things others will not. If it is left to the player, it just becomes a matter of whether you believe others gain something from it and if you feel you need to get something to “compensate”.

Not everyone sees these “large black smudgy squares” you're talking about. Others see very tiny, heavily aliased dots that fade in and out smoothly as the contact becomes more or less visible.

8 minutes ago, Talisman_VR said:

Also, the black smudgy squares do not allow the aircraft type to be identified at all.

That is as intended. They're meant for spotting, not identification — you do that much further in, when the dots are no longer in play.

[Talisman_VR]

1 minute ago, Tippis said:

It varies with the player and their setup, and as such needs to be handled like any other graphics option. Otherwise you end up with a situation where the server enforces disadvantages on some players and enforces advantages on others, which is arguably the worst outcome possible. It would be like the server deciding that, no, you can't play in 4K or in VR because you might (and it is might, not will) see things others will not. If it is left to the player, it just becomes a matter of whether you believe others gain something from it and if you feel you need to get something to “compensate”.

Not everyone sees these “large black smudgy squares” you're talking about. Others see very tiny, heavily aliased dots that fade in and out smoothly as the contact becomes more or less visible.

That is as intended. They're meant for spotting, not identification — you do that much further in, when the dots are no longer in play.

Bottom line is it was better before they messed with it.  If you had to see what I see since this spotting dot fiasco I suggest you would want to give up on DCS too.

As I say, the DCS brand is clearly being damaged by this.

Happy landings,

Talisman

[Tippis]

2 minutes ago, Talisman_VR said:

Bottom line is it was better before they messed with it.

In what way?

Before this, you were able to spot aircraft at absolutely impossible ranges. That is being remedied with this new system.
You would also get wildly varying, and very counter-intuitive, results depending on resolution — e.g. lower resolutions could see things more easily. That is also within the scope of being remedied by the new system.

It was unrealistic, backwards, and very silly in every way. The new one is in the process of being tweaked, which is in and of itself an improvement even if the current result for you isn't the best for you. But that is not universal.

2 minutes ago, Talisman_VR said:

As I say, the DCS brand is clearly being damaged by this.

Hardly, since it is a step along the progress to a vastly improved spotting system that the game has been in dire need of for close to a decade.

[SharpeXB]

12 minutes ago, Talisman_VR said:

As I say, the DCS brand is clearly being damaged by this.

It’s worth remembering that this is the Beta test version. Part of the problem is that seemingly everyone treats it as the release version and uses it in MP etc. but that’s a different problem. 

12 minutes ago, Talisman_VR said:

Bottom line is it was better before they messed with it.

Not really. In 2.8 it is possible to drop your resolution, see bigger dots and thus see aircraft at such crazy distances that radar becomes unnecessary. 

Edited November 18, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Talisman_VR]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s worth remembering that this is the Beta test version. Part of the problem is that seemingly everyone treats it as the release version and uses it in MP etc. but that’s a different problem. 

Not really. In 2.8 it is possible to drop your resolution, see bigger dots and thus see aircraft at such crazy distances radar becomes unnecessary. 

Folks will just exploit visuals using the spotting dot, which is likely to be a far easier and even better exploit.