resolved New spotting is great / New spotting is overcooked feedback thread

[Nealius]

My only issue with the current system is that parachutes are the exact same size and shape as aircraft in VR, until you get within 1nm and then it suddenly disappears, then reappears as a parachute. I'm getting tired of trying to BFM with parachutes while the actual bandit throws a heater up my tail.

[MIghtymoo]

3 hours ago, Nealius said:

My only issue with the current system is that parachutes are the exact same size and shape as aircraft in VR, until you get within 1nm and then it suddenly disappears, then reappears as a parachute. I'm getting tired of trying to BFM with parachutes while the actual bandit throws a heater up my tail.

Lovely described

[Tippis]

5 hours ago, Nealius said:

My only issue with the current system is that parachutes are the exact same size and shape as aircraft in VR, until you get within 1nm and then it suddenly disappears, then reappears as a parachute. I'm getting tired of trying to BFM with parachutes while the actual bandit throws a heater up my tail.

Just wait until someone manages to Lua-hack in igla troops instead of regular pilots!

[PawlaczGMD]

Some additional feedback: I think the spotting dots still penalize high resolution too much. For example, I'm using the pimax crystal VR, with 100% PD and 125% central square resolution via Quad Views. I basically don't see dots for fighter-sized targets. Unless they are against clouds, then a weirdly larger white dot appears. If I manage to glance at the reduced resolution side area, the dots are big there, probably too big.

I would say that the dots should still be smaller at lower res, and larger at higher res.

[PawlaczGMD]

On 12/29/2023 at 6:14 AM, SaschaFFM said:

I did not read through the whole conversation. I mainly play on coldwar and WW2 multiplayer-servers, so spotting is kind of essential to have a good experience for me.
At some point I do not even care if spotting is easier or harder than it is in real life, if only everyone would get the same result. Independent of VR or not and the resolution he uses.

I fly VR only. The spotting in VR was much worse than on monitor for the past years. Now with the new spotting it is the other way around. You get giant blobs for planes that are 20 miles away, so sneaking in is a thing of the past. But: This is heavily dependent on the resolution. I have a high PPD VR with eye-tracking and I see *nothing* beyond 3 miles or so. I set up a test-mission with targets in defined distances, so I can easily compare. When I deactivate high PPD mode and reduce resolution to its minimum, I can see planes in 20 miles distance again.

I would hope that everyone would be able to get the same spotting. It appears to just render the dots in something like 16x16 pixels for every device. Wouldnt it make more sense to make that relative to the fov? Like render a dot that is 0.2 degrees (fov). Perhaps I am thinking too easy here, but why wouldnt that work?

I second this. Having used 2 different headsets over the last months, low- to medium- resolution VR = huge spotting dots. High-resolution VR = almost no spotting dots, with Pimax Crystal I only see them for bombers and naval vessels. The resolution scaling of the dots should be changed, at least for VR.

[Niksan_73]

After the last update I think that the spotting distance is worse. Now I can see a wwII target when it is on my tail. Sadly, I was starting to play WWII servers again but now it is useless .

[SharpeXB]

18 hours ago, Niksan_73 said:

After the last update I think that the spotting distance is worse.

Are you sure? There has been no mention of any adjustments to this feature in the Change Log. 
 

18 hours ago, Niksan_73 said:

Now I can see a wwII target when it is on my tail.

Did you mean “can’t see”? In any case a bandit that close (within a few hundred yards) would be unaffected by the spotting dot feature, it would be too large. 

[Niksan_73]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Are you sure? There has been no mention of any adjustments to this feature in the Change Log. 
 

Did you mean “can’t see”? In any case a bandit that close (within a few hundred yards) would be unaffected by the spotting dot feature, it would be too large. 

1.No matter that there has been no mention, mean that there has been no any adjustment, or something from the new changes influence the spotting distance.

Sorry, I mean "I can't see the bandit in the distance when he come to me, and believe me I constantly scan the area around me. I can see the bandit when he is at firing distance at my 6 and there he is in the good position. Before the last update I have no such problem, and when VR players say they see big black dots "target " at great distance , it is useless to fight online.

 

[PawlaczGMD]

2 hours ago, Niksan_73 said:

1.No matter that there has been no mention, mean that there has been no any adjustment, or something from the new changes influence the spotting distance.

Sorry, I mean "I can't see the bandit in the distance when he come to me, and believe me I constantly scan the area around me. I can see the bandit when he is at firing distance at my 6 and there he is in the good position. Before the last update I have no such problem, and when VR players say they see big black dots "target " at great distance , it is useless to fight online.

 

It really depends on what VR set they're using. When I had Quest 2 and Pico 4, the dots were huge. On Crystal, they almost don't exist. The way they scale it with headset resolution needs tuning. 

[SharpeXB]

12 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

It really depends on what VR set they're using. When I had Quest 2 and Pico 4, the dots were huge. On Crystal, they almost don't exist. The way they scale it with headset resolution needs tuning. 

I’m guessing that’s because the dots are sized based upon pixels, so higher resolutions get smaller dots. Although this sounds like the 2.8 version. If you select Spotting Dots Off in 2.9 it will revert to the 2.8 method. 

[PawlaczGMD]

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m guessing that’s because the dots are sized based upon pixels, so higher resolutions get smaller dots. Although this sounds like the 2.8 version. If you select Spotting Dots Off in 2.9 it will revert to the 2.8 method. 

Yes, that's exactly what it is. I think they way they scale it causes the dots to be too big on lower res headsets, and too small on higher res ones. 

I've tried turning the improved dots on and off, and honestly I can barely tell the difference.

[Tippis]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m guessing that’s because the dots are sized based upon pixels, so higher resolutions get smaller dots.

Eh, no.

Well, yes, everything is based on pixels on a pixel-based display system and no-one is really rocking the vector displays or line plotters of old. But no, the dots are based on resolution, where higher resolutions get larger dots in terms of pixel count. Cripes.

The end goal is to make the apparent size as resolution-independent and equal as possible.

Edited March 18, 2024 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Yes, that's exactly what it is. I think they way they scale it causes the dots to be too big on lower res headsets, and too small on higher res ones. 

I've tried turning the improved dots on and off, and honestly I can barely tell the difference.

The new Spotting Dots are exactly the same effect as Dot Labels (look earlier in this thread for examples). They're a label for people who don’t want to admit to using labels but they are sized in a certain number of pixels so at lower resolutions they appear larger, allegedly to even the playing field. The 2.8 version was a single pixel so it was essentially invisible at higher resolution like 4K. The new 2.9 version is just the same pixels as a dot label. The 2.8 version did not fade with distance whereas the 2.9 one sorta does but it’s still too visible at extreme ranges. The dots look bigger in VR because the pixels just look bigger to you in that headset. But it’s the same thing as on a screen otherwise. It’s up to you to pick your poison and just accept that MP in DCS is exploitable and that fact really isn’t a priority for  ED or many players it seems. This topic is pretty well dead and will likely never get any further attention. 
PS to see the difference you need to restart the game. 

Edited March 18, 2024 by SharpeXB

[PawlaczGMD]

51 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The new Spotting Dots are exactly the same effect as Dot Labels (look earlier in this thread for examples). They're a label for people who don’t want to admit to using labels but they are sized in a certain number of pixels so at lower resolutions they appear larger, allegedly to even the playing field. The 2.8 version was a single pixel so it was essentially invisible at higher resolution like 4K. The new 2.9 version is just the same pixels as a dot label. The 2.8 version did not fade with distance whereas the 2.9 one sorta does but it’s still too visible at extreme ranges. The dots look bigger in VR because the pixels just look bigger to you in that headset. But it’s the same thing as on a screen otherwise. It’s up to you to pick your poison and just accept that MP in DCS is exploitable and that fact really isn’t a priority for  ED or many players it seems. This topic is pretty well dead and will likely never get any further attention. 
PS to see the difference you need to restart the game. 

 

Let me assure you that in high resolution VR the new spotting dots are not the same as dot labels. They are an order of magnitude smaller. You must be talking about either a 2D screen or a lower resolution VR headset. For me in VR the spotting dots are tiny, comparable to a single pixel. For both new and old settings. That is the problem that I'm describing - the size is very dependent on resolution, and the scaling of the size with resolution is flawed. I accept that the system is flawed and exploitable, but I argue that it can be improved significantly by changing the dot scaling with resolution to make the dots somewhat smaller at low res and somewhat bigger at high res.

[SharpeXB]

22 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Let me assure you that in high resolution VR the new spotting dots are not the same as dot labels. They are an order of magnitude smaller. You must be talking about either a 2D screen or a lower resolution VR headset. For me in VR the spotting dots are tiny, comparable to a single pixel. For both new and old settings. That is the problem that I'm describing - the size is very dependent on resolution, and the scaling of the size with resolution is flawed. I accept that the system is flawed and exploitable, but I argue that it can be improved significantly by changing the dot scaling with resolution to make the dots somewhat smaller at low res and somewhat bigger at high res.

I don’t think the dot thing will ever be solvable. The topic has pretty much run its course and I don’t see that ED has any further interest. The best improvement would simply be an option to turn it off. That hasn’t happened either and it’s been left in a broken exploitable state. This has just apparently been shelved as an eternal “WIP” 

[PawlaczGMD]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t think the dot thing will ever be solvable. The topic has pretty much run its course and I don’t see that ED has any further interest. The best improvement would simply be an option to turn it off. That hasn’t happened either and it’s been left in a broken exploitable state. This has just apparently been shelved as an eternal “WIP” 

I don't think that's reasonable or fair. They have released the "experimental" spotting dots in October. They are not perfect, but improve visibility for some people, and show that the matter was considered recently. They do not work well on my setup, so I'm giving feedback about it. All we need now is some incremental fine-tuning. I do not think that it is eternally broken based on this.  

[Tippis]

19 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The best improvement would simply be an option to turn it off. That hasn’t happened either and it’s been left in a broken exploitable state.

Quite the opposite. By not letting it be turned off, it has been left in a workable, non-exploitable state. If it could be turned off, we'd be right back to the old situation where you'd be able to spot planes at essentially maximum simulation distance — an order of magnitude farther out than would be reasonable — but wholly dependent on your graphics settings. So whoever set their graphics options “right” would have a ridiculous and thoroughly exploitable advantage over anyone who didn't know better (or who simply couldn't). It would be worse than ever, and the old dots were already much worse than the new ones in that regard. By no intelligent, sane, or rational measure could that ever be conceived of as an “improvement”.

Sorry, you won't get your 50nm “works as intended” targets back, no matter how much you preferred them to the vastly more realistic outcome we get now. It's time you give it up and stop trying to make people not give the feedback ED is asking for.

  

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

The new Spotting Dots are exactly the same effect as Dot Labels (look earlier in this thread for examples). They're a label for people who don’t want to admit to using labels but they are sized in a certain number of pixels so at lower resolutions they appear larger, allegedly to even the playing field. The 2.8 version was a single pixel so it was essentially invisible at higher resolution like 4K. The new 2.9 version is just the same pixels as a dot label. The 2.8 version did not fade with distance whereas the 2.9 one sorta does but it’s still too visible at extreme ranges.

Fortunately, exactly nothing of this is true. It's quite impressive really.

Edited March 19, 2024 by Tippis

[SharpeXB]

2 hours ago, PawlaczGMD said:

I don't think that's reasonable or fair. They have released the "experimental" spotting dots in October. They are not perfect, but improve visibility for some people, and show that the matter was considered recently. They do not work well on my setup, so I'm giving feedback about it. All we need now is some incremental fine-tuning. I do not think that it is eternally broken based on this.  

They released the feature without apparently even testing it and they’ve since abandoned it in a broken state. Or worse, two dysfunctional methods to choose from as if that’s a solution. Honestly I don’t think ED really cares about the feature or feels pressured to placate gamers who think distant small aircraft should be so easily seen. The previous method didn’t receive much thought or testing either, for years and even still now it’s not even necessary to use radar in the game. How ludicrous is that for something that’s supposed to be a sim?

There’s no good solution for this dot method because dots can’t replicate the factors that contribute to realistic visibility, primarily target aspect. How can they? They’re just blocks. And any dot , even a single pixel, will just over-enhance the target. Visibility doesn’t need to be improved, it needs to be realistic. The real world values for this are just far lower than most gamers will accept.
Again if you’re going to play online just have fun and accept that the game is being exploited and relish getting kills on people who can probably see you without even using their radar. But ED has no interest in fixing this, if they did it would be a simple matter to make the dots a server/mission setting. 

Edited March 19, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Tippis]

On 3/19/2024 at 4:26 AM, SharpeXB said:

They released the feature without apparently even testing it and they’ve since abandoned it in a broken state.

No, they released it for testing. They've since asked for feedback. That's why we have this thread.

They've also offered up a means to go back to the old and infamously broken system as a way to compare how old and new yield different results (and because some preferred the broken one for some reason or another).

So this is a pretty rich and hypocritical statement from someone who has keep bemoaning how the beta test client was being used…

On 3/19/2024 at 4:26 AM, SharpeXB said:

There’s no good solution for this dot method because dots can’t replicate the factors that contribute to realistic visibility, primarily target aspect.

Yes there is. You're just asking it to solve a part of the spotting solution that it is not meant to cover. That doesn't make it a bad solution for the part that it does handle. That's like complaining that there is no good solution for how the gears-up bind doesn't open your canopy. It's not meant to.

The ways in which a dot is the only solution for parts of the spotting equation have been described extensively: to cover up the just-within-WVR range bracket where you can't use a 3D model because it would show too much and would be inequitable between resolutions. Just because it doesn't address middle-WVR identification issue doesn't mean it doesn't work for the range bracket where its functionality is needed.

On 3/19/2024 at 4:26 AM, SharpeXB said:

Visibility doesn’t need to be improved, it needs to be realistic.

…and yet, here you are are, asking it to be massively increased to wholly unrealistic levels by effectively arguing for unlimited spotting range rather than the cap that the current solution sets on things. Or at the very least you're asking for the return to the old system where that cap was vastly higher than it is now. Why is that? And before that, you were adamantly in favour of the old system because it was also somehow realistic and you went on the same tirade against “gamers” who wanted to see spotting improved, when in actuality, you were arguing in favour of the most game:y and least realistic implementation on the market. You also strenuously argued against the other solutions to the spotting issues that would solve the WVR parts of the problem and make them more in line with real-world experiments and data, on the grounds that this would somehow also be unrealistic.

On 3/19/2024 at 4:26 AM, SharpeXB said:

But ED has no interest in fixing this, if they did it would be a simple matter to make the dots a server/mission setting. 

You have no idea what ED wants. Other than that they have explicitly stated for years now that they're looking for an improved spotting solution. And now we have one. Also, you once again need to realise that if there even was something to “fix” with a mission setting, it would be the exact opposite to what you're asking for: a flag to force the new dots on, since that means everyone sees the same thing, as opposed to the old system where player setting massively changed what was visible to whom, causing the very problem you're saying you want to avoid. But ultimately, there is nothing to fix — eventually the new system will be tweaked, the old system will just go away, and the supposed problem will no longer exist.

Edited March 20, 2024 by Tippis

[Lixma 06]

Are there any plans to have the 'dots' gradually fade in?

Currently they are instantly solid black from over 20km away, as if there's no atmosphere between the player and the contact.

[Tippis]

54 minutes ago, Lixma 06 said:

Are there any plans to have the 'dots' gradually fade in?

They should already fade in. If they suddenly appear, you should probably submit a bug report, maybe with a video showing it happening along with a view on F10 map to see the crossover point. Also, check that you're not seeing (possibly customised) labels as they can be set to a much more aggressive behaviour in terms of how they show up.

[JCTherik]

Are there any plans to sort out the mid range?

 

I can currently see airplanes as dots at 10 miles really quite clearly, often even against terrain. I'd say it's unrealistically clear. Airliners at 8 mile altitude are a bit harder to pick up IRL I'd say, if they weren't tracing.

 

But once the 3D model kicks in the plane still disappears and is functionally invisible even against a clear blue sky until it gets to around 2 miles, when enough pixels become consistently grey enough for long enough that if I randomly happen to look directly at them in the middle of the sweet spot, they will make me pause and consider that there may be something fishy going on in that part of the sky.

Still need radar to verify though.

It could be an airplane, it could be some weird sky banding that happens to be aliasing, a DLSS artifact, small high altitude cloud or an eyelash.

 

Luckily I still have 7 seconds until merge to figure it out.

Edited May 8, 2024 by JCTherik

[Gunjam]

8 months later, and still radio silence.

ED have said on discord that they have enough feedback but have given the old "need more free dev time" response.

Can they give an actual timeline for an update regarding tweaking spotting, or is this so low in priority that it will be left as is for the foreseeable future?

[BIGNEWY]

9 minutes ago, Gunjam said:

8 months later, and still radio silence.

ED have said on discord that they have enough feedback but have given the old "need more free dev time" response.

Can they give an actual timeline for an update regarding tweaking spotting, or is this so low in priority that it will be left as is for the foreseeable future?

overall spotting has improved, however we are considering tweaking more especially for VR. 

[Eraseri]

Hi,

I would like to inform you that there is huge discrepancy between 1440p and 4K spotting. I'm running on 4K monitor and I've been having much harder time spotting things than flying buddies. I ran a test with 1440p and 4K resolution. The difference is tremendous as you can see in the attached photos. There are two targets in front. One is 3 Nm and another one is 6 Nm. The dots are virtually double the size on 1440p resolution. This test made me feel so sad of having 4K screen... So it's good if it has been improved but I sincerely hope that the work continues to bring different resolutions to same level. 1440p is like cheating compared to 4K.

During this test only setting that I changed was the resolution.