w.i.p New spotting is great / New spotting is overcooked feedback thread

[PeevishMonkey]

Honestly, I see the difference after the last update between previous and the current version, thanks ED for the courage to experiment in the right direction

was before (MSAAx4):

Now (MSAAx4):

Now with “improved spotting dot - off” (MSAAx4):

And for DLAA:

was before (DLAA):

Now (DLAA):

Now with “improved spotting dot - off” (DLAA):

But It's hard to convince myself that the “improved spotting dot - off” option works correctly.

It's looks like for DLAA with "improved spotting dot - OFF" I can see better then with "improved spotting dot - ON"... Maybe I need additional test...

For MSAA it's looks OK and reasonable.

P.S.  I would cut the distance by 1.5-2 times... 

 

 

[Buzz313th]

29 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s really odd that someone doesn’t mind being at this unwitting disadvantage in a game. I don’t think most players feel this way. Right now MP is a total joke, the spotting is exploitable for any of the players since they can select either version. 

We should spin up a few WVR engagements.  I'll use no dots, and you can use the big new dots.  As long as I don't take my eyes off you outside of 2-3 miles you will have no advantage.  And considering how hung up you are on the dots, your already at a tactical and mental disadvantage without the ability to let go.  I don't think it's that big of a deal TBH.  As long as ED gets the dots to render in and out at roughly the correct distance then let the players adjust for what they "Believe" they should see at what distance. 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Buzz313th

[Tippis]

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s really odd that someone doesn’t mind being at this unwitting disadvantage in a game.

It really isn't. It's called “a challenge” and there are entire game genres — very popular ones at that — built on scratching that itch.

It's also not unwitting. It's well-known and long-established that the game's spotting is horribly broken in ever which way. People have known about and been fine with that for ages, so how does it change now that the game is more enjoyable to him? It matters a great deal to you who gets what advantage; it doesn't matter to him (or many others). Not caring is not the same thing as not knowing.

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Right now MP is a total joke

It really isn't. We've had to expand the number of servers we run to deal with the increased interest as ED have finally started to make headway with some of the game's biggest flaws and add new features that make missions — in MP or SP — much more interesting.

Of course, I understand that what you wanted to say was PvP, not MP. Those are two very different things. Coincidentally, PvP isn't particularly broken either. At least not more so than it was with the old spotting system. It was just broken in your favour back then…

  

4 minutes ago, PeevishMonkey said:

But It's hard to convince myself that the “improved spotting dot - off” option works correctly.

It's looks like for DLAA with "improved spotting dot - OFF" I can see better then with "improved spotting dot - ON"... Maybe I need additional test...

That's not all that surprising. Remember, the old spotting system was broken. The new one is improved, not in the sense of “you can categorically see better” but in the sense of “they get rid of some of the silliness of the old system”. Being able to see contacts far too easily is one of those things that it is meant to address.

[Buzz313th]

8 minutes ago, PeevishMonkey said:

Honestly, I see the difference after the last update between previous and the current version, thanks ED for the courage to experiment in the right direction

was before (MSAAx4):

Now (MSAAx4):

Now with “improved spotting dot - off” (MSAAx4):

And for DLAA:

was before (DLAA):

Now (DLAA):

Now with “improved spotting dot - off” (DLAA):

But It's hard to convince myself that the “improved spotting dot - off” option works correctly.

It's looks like for DLAA with "improved spotting dot - OFF" I can see better then with "improved spotting dot - ON"... Maybe I need additional test...

For MSAA it's looks OK and reasonable.

P.S.  I would cut the distance by 1.5-2 times... 

 

 

I like your examples here.   

Get the dots to start (Color) blending in with the horizon (Less contrast) at about 3-5 miles instead of 17 and it starts becoming more realistic.  Or like I said, give the user the ability to adjust dot size and dot contrast to polish it off per user. 

[Buzz313th]

18 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

PS to the above. With Spotting Dots On the distant high-aspect fighter aircraft be come easily visible at 21 miles as defined black dots. That's not realistic at all.

 

Leave the dots size and drastically decrease contrast of the dots against the horizon and you would never spot them.

[Parabe11um]

17 minutes ago, Tippis said:

It really isn't. It's called “a challenge” and there are entire game genres — very popular ones at that — built on scratching that itch.

It's also not unwitting. It's well-known and long-established that the game's spotting is horribly broken in ever which way. People have known about and been fine with that for ages, so how does it change now that the game is more enjoyable to him? It matters a great deal to you who gets what advantage; it doesn't matter to him (or many others). Not caring is not the same thing as not knowing.

It really isn't. We've had to expand the number of servers we run to deal with the increased interest as ED have finally started to make headway with some of the game's biggest flaws and add new features that make missions — in MP or SP — much more interesting.

Of course, I understand that what you wanted to say was PvP, not MP. Those are two very different things. Coincidentally, PvP isn't particularly broken either. At least not more so than it was with the old spotting system. It was just broken in your favour back then…

  

That's not all that surprising. Remember, the old spotting system was broken. The new one is improved, not in the sense of “you can categorically see better” but in the sense of “they get rid of some of the silliness of the old system”. Being able to see contacts far too easily is one of those things that it is meant to address.

From a PVP point of view this system is already better.

It used to be the case that you were obligated to run low res to spot as far as possible and to track targets easier.

As someone who only plays on ECW and 4YA DCS WW2 and who only plays PVP, the current system already wins if PVP is the main focus.

Although there are weird contexts where the dots don't seem to respect the max range, at least when it works you no longer have 50+ NM spotting that is/was possible in 2.8.

[SharpeXB]

24 minutes ago, rfxcasey said:

Reshade-me can be used to make dots pop from all the way across the map, both on 2D and 3D displays.

Indeed. Other games have these blocked for that reason. Strangely DCS never seems too concerned about exploits in MP. Until recently the spotting dots themselves were hackable and uncontrolled by the IC. Who knows what other exploits are possible? MP seems like a big joke honestly. 

23 minutes ago, Buzz313th said:

We should spin up a few WVR engagements. 

it’s funny you think the ability of other players to easily see you across the entire map isn’t an advantage. Many DCS aircraft have weapons where this distance is a no-escape kill range and even in WWII, especially in WWII whoever seems the enemy first will probably win. You’ll never see them at all when they bounce you. 

23 minutes ago, PeevishMonkey said:

But It's hard to convince myself that the “improved spotting dot - off” option works correctly.

Spotting Dot Off isn’t actually “off”. It’s just reverting back to the 2.8 version which in cases of lower resolution was even more egregious. I didn’t see anything in the patch notes about the spotting dots being improved or changed, just that this On Off option was added. 

4 minutes ago, Buzz313th said:

Leave the dots size and drastically decrease contrast of the dots against the horizon and you would never spot them.

How about just removing the dots entirely? Same result. Why have dots to give you this unrealistic view range?

[Buzz313th]

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

especially in WWII

That's the best point in your argument.

[Tippis]

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

How about just removing the dots entirely? Same result. Why have dots to give you this unrealistic view range?

Because we already know what happens and how much more unrealistic that is. Not to mention how it would completely break the PvP balance you claim to strive for.

Those are the two things you repeatedly return to to argue against and/or in favour of any and all improvements to spotting. Now you're arguing that it should be made worse than ever in both regards. Oh dear…

[Buzz313th]

17 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

How about just removing the dots entirely? Same result. Why have dots to give you this unrealistic view range?

The dot's are probably a way to give people running lower resolution displays the ability to spot at a distance where rendering the model would be smaller than a pixel. 

But I agree with you.  If everyone had the ability to run a resolution where the furthest realistic acquisition distance was equal to a few pixels then they wouldn't need spot dots. 

Or maybe, the spot dots are ED's way of reducing System load by holding off on rendering a model and textures until much closer distances.  If you think about it, this method would make a big impact on system load, especially regarding ground vehicles that are representing mission ai.   I dunno, I'm just spitballing.   

But I do know one thing..  I KNOW, that everyone will not agree on this topic as there are way too many variables.   My user adjustability via slider idea, might also be a tool to allow ED to do research on the values that certain users choose compared against the systems they are running.   

Edited November 20, 2023 by Buzz313th

[buceador]

4 hours ago, Pikey said:

10nm, see dot fine (remember, there is compression on the recording and in VR this is magnified.
watch the range count down and then...just disappears in close.

Ok, I have to agree, it is the opposite of what you would want and expect, VR seems to have yet another problem within DCS, I only now play 2D and on a 55" TV so the whole dot thing is a non issue for me.

[sthompson]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Just to be clear it’s not just VR that needs work, this feature is highly unrealistic and unsightly on monitors as well. 

Well maybe on some monitors with some video settings. I run at 2560x1440 and haven't really noticed much of a change. Nothing that I would call "unsightly." Spotting now seems marginally easier than before. Spotting is still very difficult with dot labels turned off.

[Why485]

3 hours ago, PeevishMonkey said:

But It's hard to convince myself that the “improved spotting dot - off” option works correctly.

All of your "now" pictures look like the "improved spotting dot" option set to OFF. It's not stated anywhere, but the setting doesn't take effect unless you restart DCS completely. If all the "now" tests were done in the same DCS session, without restarting DCS, your results will be off.

Every patch I run my own set of spotting tests, just in case something was changed and not mentioned in the changelog, and I didn't notice any changes with last week's patch.

3 hours ago, PeevishMonkey said:

I would cut the distance by 1.5-2 times... 

Agreed on this though. 10km is optimistic for a WWII fighter. From a 1944 Soviet Army for artillerymen to estimate range based on spotting aircraft:

http://airpages.ru/mn/scout_02.shtml

Edited November 20, 2023 by Why485

[rfxcasey]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Indeed. Other games have these blocked for that reason. Strangely DCS never seems too concerned about exploits in MP. Until recently the spotting dots themselves were hackable and uncontrolled by the IC. Who knows what other exploits are possible? MP seems like a big joke honestly.

Mind you, I'm not in favor of Eagle Dynamics blocking auxiliary software from running alongside. Head tracking, voice command, bass shaker and other complementary program's functionality rely on DCS's openness.

[SharpeXB]

13 minutes ago, rfxcasey said:

Mind you, I'm not in favor of Eagle Dynamics blocking auxiliary software from running alongside. Head tracking, voice command, bass shaker and other complementary program's functionality rely on DCS's openness.

Those add-ons aren’t exploiting the graphics. There’s a difference there. Sure there are harmless ways of using the injectors but they can also be a cheat. 

[SharpeXB]

48 minutes ago, Why485 said:

 From a 1944 Soviet Army for artillerymen to estimate range based on spotting aircraft:

Exactly what you see in DCS without using dots

[Tippis]

1 hour ago, Why485 said:

Agreed on this though. 10km is optimistic for a WWII fighter. From a 1944 Soviet Army for artillerymen to estimate range based on spotting aircraft:

http://airpages.ru/mn/scout_02.shtml

Spoiler

 

 

Nice!

It's not entirely clear whether the table references fighters or bombers, and with bombers taking up about twice the number of “divisions” along each axis, that makes a bit of a difference. Still, as a baseline it works well enough since modern fighters sit somewhere between the two.

Translated into units we're more familiar with, we get:

Distance	Features visible
<5.4nm	Small black dots
<4.3nm	Silhouette in the form of dots
<3.2nm	Silhouettes with no details
<1.6nm	Contours of plane and fuselage
<1nm / 6500'	Shape of plane and fuselage; contour of tail
<0.5nm /  3300'	Signs, racks, chassis, tail
<0.27nm / 1600'	Racks, braces, struts, ID marks

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

20 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Exactly what you see in DCS without using dots

[Citation needed] Especially since I sincerely doubt you have ever seen DCS without dots and are just guessing based on… absolutely nothing.

Because no, no it's not. Without dots, you see far more than that at ranges far beyond the 10km listed. We know this because you've already described it and taken screen shots of it. You describe them as very visible at 5nm, when they should be small dots or just outright invisible. You have a screenshot showing silhouettes at almost twice the listed distance. You're seeing tail and chassis details at what your screenshot name suggests is 7nm(!) which is seven times more than it should be. The dots are not even a factor here — you are already looking at a 3D model so you'd see the same thing if you managed to cajole DCS to not show any dots at all.

You then go on to call that realistic, and now you claim that it matches the old spotting tables in spite of being off by at least a factor of 2×.

Cripes.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Tippis

[PeevishMonkey]

8 часов назад, SharpeXB сказал:

Spotting Dot Off isn’t actually “off”. It’s just reverting back to the 2.8 version

Only ED know it. As for me, I'm not sure it in 100%.

5 часов назад, Why485 сказал:

If all the "now" tests were done in the same DCS session, without restarting DCS, your results will be off.

OK, thanks. I'll try restart.

Edited November 21, 2023 by PeevishMonkey

[Nascar]

Reverb G2 spotting dots off looks good to me. I am still getting a dark line from the lasing drones though. At night I can see the laser and the dark line.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, PeevishMonkey said:

Only ED know it. As for me, I'm not sure it in 100%.

From the latest newsletter:

“In the most recent DCS 2.9 Open Beta update, we will be adding a settings toggle to switch this algorithm ON or OFF. If set to OFF, the rendering is reverted to the previous method.”

[PeevishMonkey]

9 часов назад, Why485 сказал:

restarting DCS

Yes, my fail. I didn't restart DCS after changing the spotting option. All my results for "New" model are for “improved spotting dot - off” options. Sorry.

As for me, visibility range is approximately the same ON/OFF new spotting, but "blending in with the horizon" much, much better with "ON" option, that is why it's looks more realistic.

12 часов назад, Buzz313th сказал:

Get the dots to start (Color) blending in with the horizon (Less contrast) at about 3-5 miles instead of 17 and it starts becoming more realistic.

146% agree.

Edited November 21, 2023 by PeevishMonkey

[Talisman_VR]

On 11/20/2023 at 12:02 PM, Vakarian said:

Do you see the irony in your statement?
VR users are vocal minority. Multiplayer PvPers are also vocal minority. For the people playing on monitors, on higher resolutions (yes, it's 2023 and people use something else than 1080p monitors these days) it was impossible to see something 2-3 miles away unless you actually knew where stuff was so you could focus there.

Now, is the current system perfect, no, it's not. Is it better than it was previously? Depends who you ask. In VR, mostly people say no (don't have VR anymore so can't personally test and say my opinion). However in 2D I'd say hell yes. I can actually fly visual circuit without having to guess where people are or use zoom for basically 2-3 nmi bubble.

So maybe the solution could be to have a flat screen optimised version of this sim/game and a second VR optimised version of this sim/game.

Then all the VR folks can fly together and all the flat screen folks can fly together, with each to their own world and their own needs.

Simples.

Happy landings,

Talisman

[Buzz313th]

11 hours ago, PeevishMonkey said:

146% agree.

I "Think" I see what you did there.. 

 

[Buzz313th]

Quest3 4800x2600, Oculus Link cable on Oculus Link.  No VR tweaks or 3rd party apps, DCS system setting @ 85-90% sharpening 0.6

 

Since the last beta 2.9 update that has allowed me to turn off "New Spotting Dots", I can confidently say that with this option "OFF"  is the most realistic spotting dynamic both distant and within 10nm that I have experienced with DCS world.  I understand that some people feel that by turning this option off, that it reverts to the old logic of 2.8.  Personally, I am not experiencing what I saw in 2.8, as the dots at distance with the option off in 2.9 seem smaller and harder to spot than they did in 2.8.  There is one thing I have changed settings wise around the time I went from 2.8 to 2.9 and that was one step higher in resolution in oculus link.  I think it was from 4700x2500 to 4800x2600.   

 

With all that being said, I am curious if any developer or ED rep can comment on whether or not turning off the "New Spotting Dots" in 2.9 beta is reverting to the logic from 2.8, or is it the same logic at the new dots, just with an adjusted dot size for VR users?

@BIGNEWY and @NineLine 

Thanks

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Buzz313th said:

I am curious if any developer or ED rep can comment on whether or not turning off the "New Spotting Dots" in 2.9 beta is reverting to the logic from 2.8

That’s what it says here:

”In the most recent DCS 2.9 Open Beta update, we will be adding a settings toggle to switch this algorithm ON or OFF. If set to OFF, the rendering is reverted to the previous method.”

 

When I test 2.9 off at low res I don’t see big dots like 2.8 either though. I think 2.9 Off looks very good and realistic. I hope it’s an actual Off setting.  

Edited November 25, 2023 by SharpeXB