2.9 DLSS checklist - great video guide

[Mr_sukebe]

Chaps,

For those of you struggling with 2.9, please do take a look at the linked video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixzeCdeo1Hw

It's not very long and in my opinion, should be watched by EVERYONE about to install 2.9.  

Note that I'm not a member of the AWG and have had no input into the video.  Having said that, I DO agree with everything said in the video, and think that it's pretty much a "should watch".  Infact I rate it so much, that I'm hoping ED will either replicate or, or link to it themselves as part of their guidance for when 2.9 goes out to the Stable user base.

My thanks to the creators of the video.  Had me hit the subscribe to channel button.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Mr_sukebe

[twistking]

i'm pretty sure that the video's author is wrong about DCS compiling shaders during flight. On deletion of fxo/metashaders the shaders get compiled during loading: I never experienced any form of shader-compilation-stutter during gameplay and i'm on a low-end system. The idea of DCS needing many sessions over multiple days to rebuild the shader cache is bonkers, honestly.
Also i would recommend deleting the folders (fxo/metashaders) instead of the files. It's not super important, but just good practice - to make sure you also get hidden files, in case there are some. DCS does not need to "repair" itself upon deletion of those folders: They will simply be created when the new files get written.

[scommander2]

If I recalled correctly the author who made the video mentioned that ED will make the necessary fixes (I will say changes based on our feedback) in the next release.  

How ED does it and let's see...  

[SharpeXB]

When you install DCS from scratch it doesn’t need to build shaders. It just installs everything. Obviously… so why wouldn’t it just update itself correctly?
 

Also some advice about DLSS it’s not necessary for everyone to enable that. If you’re getting good frame rates without it, you’re better leaving it off. DLSS after all gives you a boost at the cost of quality. That may not be a fair trade. 
The author is jumping through a lot of hoops with a system that probably runs better without DLSS. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by SharpeXB

[twistking]

17 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

When you install DCS from scratch it doesn’t need to build shaders. It just installs everything. Obviously… so why wouldn’t it just update itself correctly? [...]

Don't know if i get what you're saying. Why would there be no shader compilation after a fresh install. How else would the neccessary shader code be compiled?

I only wonder why DCS cannot simply delete and rebuild shaders by itself after each update. I thought this would have been a feature since 2.7 or 2.8 ...

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, twistking said:

Don't know if i get what you're saying. Why would there be no shader compilation after a fresh install. How else would the neccessary shader code be compiled?

I only wonder why DCS cannot simply delete and rebuild shaders by itself after each update. I thought this would have been a feature since 2.7 or 2.8 ...

Whatever that shader compiling is, it’s not anything I’ve ever noticed causing performance trouble. The game doesn’t take days of use in order to run smooth for me. And the advice about deleting those folders isn’t anything mentioned in the patch notes or anything afaik. Seems like a placebo. All I’ve ever needed to do updating DCS is click Update. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by SharpeXB

[twistking]

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Whatever that shader compiling is, it’s not anything I’ve ever noticed causing performance trouble. The game doesn’t take days of use in order to run smooth for me. And the advice about deleting those folders isn’t anything mentioned in the patch notes or anything afaik. Seems like a placebo. All I’ve ever needed to do updating DCS is click Update.

Well, i agree, in that i also never saw performance issues caused by shader compilation, but it's very obvious that DCS loads longer when it does recompile the shaders. Also deleting fxo/metashaders was from time to time suggested by the devs/mods AND it's obvious that shaders NEED to be recompiled after certain changes in the renderer, because outdated code could plausibly cause issues. It's not DCS only: All modern PC Games have this potential problem (console games often have their shaders precompiled afaik, because hardware is a known). Normally it's just a non-issue, because games would just trigger a recompile themselfes, if a patch or user settings requires it. I can think of a few other games though, that in patchnotes often have the suggestion to delete old shader files either as a precaution after each update, or as a common solution to visual and performance issues.

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, twistking said:

Well, i agree, in that i also never saw performance issues caused by shader compilation, but it's very obvious that DCS loads longer when it does recompile the shaders. Also deleting fxo/metashaders was from time to time suggested by the devs/mods AND it's obvious that shaders NEED to be recompiled after certain changes in the renderer, because outdated code could plausibly cause issues. It's not DCS only: All modern PC Games have this potential problem (console games often have their shaders precompiled afaik, because hardware is a known). Normally it's just a non-issue, because games would just trigger a recompile themselfes, if a patch or user settings requires it. I can think of a few other games though, that in patchnotes often have the suggestion to delete old shader files either as a precaution after each update, or as a common solution to visual and performance issues.

I figure if it was really a necessary thing the installer would just do this by itself. In any case this is all really invisible to the player. It wouldn’t be reasonable to expect people to know this. I haven’t seen any other game with such advice. 

[scommander2]

24 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I figure if it was really a necessary thing the installer would just do this by itself. In any case this is all really invisible to the player. It wouldn’t be reasonable to expect people to know this. I haven’t seen any other game with such advice. 

Yes, the application self should perform any upgrade or adjustment if needed to meet the requirements according the release version regardless the existing settings or data.

The very newer version is always buggy and we do not know how beta testers have tested the new changes based on hardware, existing upgrade or  new installation.

In my opinion, we, all, are guessing that we are trying helping each other to overcome any issue that is introduced in this release. 

[Glide]

4 hours ago, twistking said:

I never experienced any form of shader-compilation-stutter during gameplay

There used to be a bug related to this, but it's fixed now.  The method for testing was to disable shader cache in the Nvidia Control Panel, then launch into Syria Map at Beirut airport.  Immediately after spawn, pan the viewport back and forth.  The sim would stutter until the missing shaders were compiled.  I called this the Beirut test, and when I want to stress test a release I go to Beirut. 

I have only needed to delete shaders one time in my entire life.  I don't know all the details about DCS shaders, but my understanding is they get signed after an update so they don't mix up with versions.  IMHO, in this modern age, developers don't make solutions that require the users to perform a bunch of voodoo steps to get their software to work properly.  DCS has always worked out of the box for me, and I really enjoy exploring the changes to the graphics engine after each release by tweaking graphics settings.

[SharpeXB]

52 minutes ago, scommander2 said:

Yes, the application self should perform any upgrade or adjustment if needed to meet the requirements according the release version regardless the existing settings or data.

The very newer version is always buggy and we do not know how beta testers have tested the new changes based on hardware, existing upgrade or  new installation.

In my opinion, we, all, are guessing that we are trying helping each other to overcome any issue that is introduced in this release. 

Sometimes things like this video just add to the confusion though. Honestly the advice here isn’t all too great. 

[MAXsenna]

I figure if it was really a necessary thing the installer would just do this by itself. In any case this is all really invisible to the player. It wouldn’t be reasonable to expect people to know this. I haven’t seen any other game with such advice. 

Well, it's not actually "invisible" because it says that it's compiling shaders when it needs them, when starting the game after an update and when launching a mission with a module/map that haven't been compiled. Hence I can't play DCS anymore, because it crashes my GPU. I suspect that the new NVIDIA code has screwed me over. Oh, well...

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[SharpeXB]

30 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Well, it's not actually "invisible" because it says that it's compiling shaders when it needs them, when starting the game after an update and when launching a mission with a module/map that haven't been compiled. Hence I can't play DCS anymore, because it crashes my GPU. I suspect that the new NVIDIA code has screwed me over. Oh, well...

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

That’s not good. Try submitting a report?

Edited October 25, 2023 by SharpeXB

[MAXsenna]

That’s not good. Try submitting a report?

Multiple!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[twistking]

12 hours ago, Glide said:

There used to be a bug related to this, but it's fixed now.  The method for testing was to disable shader cache in the Nvidia Control Panel, then launch into Syria Map at Beirut airport.  Immediately after spawn, pan the viewport back and forth.  The sim would stutter until the missing shaders were compiled.  I called this the Beirut test, and when I want to stress test a release I go to Beirut. 

I have only needed to delete shaders one time in my entire life.  I don't know all the details about DCS shaders, but my understanding is they get signed after an update so they don't mix up with versions.  IMHO, in this modern age, developers don't make solutions that require the users to perform a bunch of voodoo steps to get their software to work properly.  DCS has always worked out of the box for me, and I really enjoy exploring the changes to the graphics engine after each release by tweaking graphics settings.

That's interesting. But i assume that the Nvidia Shader Cache has nothing to do with the precompiled data library in your DCS user folder. I would guess that it's more about VRAM usage for such data?! I'm out of my depth here...

I'm with DCS for over a decade now and i think i only once had issues fixed by deleting fxo/metashaders. I think it's still decent advice to do it when troubleshooting, simply because there are absolutely no adverse effects and it's easy to do even for beginners. I do it after every major update... but i'm one of those that does a steam game file verification from time to time just for peace of mind...

12 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Sometimes things like this video just add to the confusion though. Honestly the advice here isn’t all too great. 

That's kinda true. I think the advice is not "bad", but there is already a lot of guessing and confusion in this community about technical issues that those semi-correct takes muddy the water even further. It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine: It's the combination of an audience that is less "gamer" (so maybe slightly less hardware knowledgeable), an application that is notorious for having bugs and performance issues and - most importantly - devs that don't communicate about the technical details and challenges they face. As an example the ARMA series of games has always been difficult ton run well and was plagued by many issues (performance eventually got "solved" by modern processors just bruteforcing through it), but the devs were always very engaged with the community about those issues. Not only would they actively try to give suggestion in the forums, more importantly they would communicate - often quite extensively - their challenges with the engine and would provide the technical info for users to better understand the potential issues they'd encounter. This was very helpful to grow a community that has a good understanding of the technical foundation. In comparison the DCS community seems to be more occupied with superstition, occult rituals, placebos and half-truths...

Edited October 25, 2023 by twistking

[SharpeXB]

9 minutes ago, twistking said:

It's the combination of an audience that is less "gamer" (so maybe slightly less hardware knowledgeable), an application that is notorious for having bugs and performance issues

Exactly! add to this that so many people run the Open Beta. A perfect storm of confusion. Let’s not even bring up VR

[Art-J]

On 10/25/2023 at 1:52 AM, twistking said:

I only wonder why DCS cannot simply delete and rebuild shaders by itself after each update. I thought this would have been a feature since 2.7 or 2.8 ...

It was at some point, introduced with great fanfare in patch notes and all. 

Then it got broken some updates later and never recovered  .

[Mr_sukebe]

If would be good for a Dev to comment from a knowledgeable position.

[twistking]

5 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

If would be good for a Dev to comment from a knowledgeable position.

I agree for general technical issues of the DCS engine. For this particular issue about validity of shader cache deletion, i feel confident enough to say that it should be done by everyone as a first step of troubleshooting performance issues or visual bugs. It's in the same category as "do a repair/file verfification" and "disable your fu**ing mods". If you do encounter a problem, it's just good practice to do so and contrary to some other suggestions that get thrown around in these forums, it does not come with any risk of adverse effects, apart from the slightly longer loading times on first flight.

[SharpeXB]

8 minutes ago, twistking said:

For this particular issue about validity of shader cache deletion, i feel confident enough to say that it should be done by everyone as a first step of troubleshooting performance issues or visual bugs.

For troubleshooting? Sure. But the suggestion in the video that everyone needs to do this every time they update the game is a bit misplaced. There’s no harm in it but it’s just spinning your wheels. If this was really meant to be done I would imagine the installer would already be doing it for you. 

[Mr_sukebe]

41 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

For troubleshooting? Sure. But the suggestion in the video that everyone needs to do this every time they update the game is a bit misplaced. There’s no harm in it but it’s just spinning your wheels. If this was really meant to be done I would imagine the installer would already be doing it for you. 

Are you a dev?

If not, how about waiting for confirmation one way or another? One our views is wrong

[SharpeXB]

3 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

Are you a dev?

If not, how about waiting for confirmation one way or another? One our views is wrong

It’s just common sense to figure that something required by the installation would get done automatically. 

[twistking]

This is really a non-issue. If it's esotericism, it's the least harmful kind of it. No need to discuss this endlessly.
If @Art-J is correct, then this shows that the devs generally agree that it might be a good idea to delete. If their implementation indeed got broken again, my gut tells me, that we might not get an official response though But really, this one is not that important.

Edited October 26, 2023 by twistking

[Mr_sukebe]

Right now, both of us are speculating, and creating additional noise for people who just need guidance.  
I don’t care what your gut instinct tells you.

The appropriate solution is to wait for a dev/SME to confirm either way.

[twistking]

29 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

Right now, both of us are speculating, and creating additional noise for people who just need guidance.  
I don’t care what your gut instinct tells you.

The appropriate solution is to wait for a dev/SME to confirm either way.

I'd dare to say that i'm speculating from a position of technical understanding. I get your argument about noise, but -to be honest- the video you posted adds more noise than our little discussion here. We are arguing about minute details, while the video is just wrong (with probably more clicks than this forum thread). Again, not a big problem, because it's not harmful advise given, but still -technically- wrong (and egregiously unscientific: i watched it again and the author never even discloses if he saw benefits from deleting the shader cache. so i assume he did not.)