reported 64N6 Big Bird (SA-10 Search Radar) Slope Sensitivity

[Whiskey11]

With the new S-300 model coming out, I have to say I was super excited to see the updated models.  I was EVEN MORE excited to see the S-300 gained the ability to use its wheels finally. 

With that came a new set of problems.  Specifically, the 64N6 Big Bird is pretty shy about deploying on terrain which has a slope.  Normally I wouldn't have an issue with that, since, it makes sense to not deploy an extremely heavy and relatively weak radar dish on a significant slope...

Enter, the small hill grade:

Not only does it never deploy, but it's also performing a magic trick even the Soviets would have been proud of!  This particular area of Syria is not exactly an aggressive slope.  Certainly not enough to set off any warnings about the weight of the radar spinning at an angle would cause damage, or anything!  It seems like the current implementation to check and make sure it wasn't deployed on the side of a mountain, might be a bit... too aggressive?

Steps to Reproduce:
This bug is relatively simple.  Using either the default template, or creating a group manually, put an SA-10 on the map.  Launch the mission and see if the Big Bird deployed.  Sometimes it deploys correctly, sometimes it doesn't.

Expected Behavior:
The Big Bird should deploy on reasonable hill grades like the one in the above screenshot.  

 

Thanks!

dcs.log S300BigBirdDeployBug.trk

[ienatom]

Same issue here, it's impossible to properly use an SA-10 unless it's on a perfectly flat surface.

Pretty annoying...

[Whiskey11]

On 11/7/2023 at 2:39 PM, ienatom said:

Same issue here, it's impossible to properly use an SA-10 unless it's on a perfectly flat surface.

Pretty annoying...

The Tin Shield still works fine, it just doesn't provide the same coverage as the Big Bird.  For now, switch to using that!

[Tarres]

On 11/12/2023 at 5:43 AM, Whiskey11 said:

The Tin Shield still works fine, it just doesn't provide the same coverage as the Big Bird.  For now, switch to using that!

Wait... The Big Bird provides more coverage than the Tin Shield? In the ME both have the same coverage (-/+ 10km)

[Shadow KT]

I hope the tractor for the Big Bird returns, so we can have a fully mobile SA-10 system

[Whiskey11]

On 11/16/2023 at 2:51 PM, Tarres said:

Wait... The Big Bird provides more coverage than the Tin Shield? In the ME both have the same coverage (-/+ 10km)

It really depends on what model we are talking about of both radars, but the Tin Shield has less resolution in it's capabilities than the Big Bird.  The Big Bird should have a max detection range on large targets around 360km-600km while the Tin Shield's scopes are limited to about 150km-200km... again depending on which variants we are talking about.  So even if the Tin Shield could see the target at the same ranges, the operators wont know it is there until it hits the 150-200km range mark. 

[Tarres]

Yes I known, I´m talking about the sim.

[Dup]

Same issue here. We have pretty big missions with lots of BB antennas, could be cool to have this fix as soon as possible...

[MartinCo]

@Flappie sorry for this - would you be able to report this?

Please find attached a caucasus based mission with a number of Big Birds in it bigbird.miz the one in the open shows in the ME as 1036ft at every point around it refuses to deploy.

I can do a track but since it's just jump into game master and f7 view them there seems little point

Thank you!

[Flappie]

Hi @MartinCo. I was monitoring this bug because I was under the impression that it was about to be fixed internally, but in the end it did not.

The issue is now reported.

[MartinCo]

Star, thank you @Flappie!

Edit: The launchers also don't erect (both versions), which means they don't fire - so even just switching out to the Tin Shield leaves this system quite delicate to place  

Edited December 13, 2023 by MartinCo

[Flappie]

13 hours ago, MartinCo said:

Edit: The launchers also don't erect (both versions), which means they don't fire - so even just switching out to the Tin Shield leaves this system quite delicate to place

I don't see this problem in your track.

[MartinCo]

Hey @Flappie Sorry that wasn't in my file with them on the Caucasus one as I noticed it after changing to Tin Shield and added it as a note.

The launchers aren't a sensitive as the Big Bird, but if you put them on any slight incline that sometimes causes them to relocate upon spawn, or sometimes just sit there on mission start; even straight from the ME they will not erect and whilst the tin shield may be active, people can just fly right over getting tracked the entire way, but never launched on

 

Please find attached an examples / tracks 

The major pain point for me is that it impacts dynamic environments significantly as player spawned compositions most of all as we don't quite know what constitutes flat enough and have to wait and see and it's a marked change from earlier behavior.

 

S300-TER.trk s300-TER.miz

[Flappie]

In your mission, the slope is >5°, which seems too much.

Edited December 17, 2023 by Flappie

[okopanja]

Hint: you may place FARP (static objects -> helipads) and it will bring you the flat surface you need to deploy the launchers & co.

[MartinCo]

Thanks flappie for the confirmation of 5 degrees for launchers

[Flappie]

On 12/27/2023 at 2:16 AM, MartinCo said:

Thanks flappie for the confirmation of 5 degrees for launchers

I'm not aware of the threshold value. Maybe it's 5°, maybe it's less. Let's try it...

EDIT: Tested. When the slope is 4.7°, the unit turns around and deploy its tubes. Let's assume it works under 5°.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Flappie

[currenthill]

21 hours ago, Flappie said:

I'm not aware of the threshold value. Maybe it's 5°, maybe it's less. Let's try it...

EDIT: Tested. When the slope is 4.7°, the unit turns around and deploy its tubes. Let's assume it works under 5°.

 

Yep, the unit has a maxVerticalDeviationAngle set to 5 deg.

[Whiskey11]

On 12/31/2023 at 6:08 AM, Flappie said:

I'm not aware of the threshold value. Maybe it's 5°, maybe it's less. Let's try it...

EDIT: Tested. When the slope is 4.7°, the unit turns around and deploy its tubes. Let's assume it works under 5°.

 

Any updates on this bug (slope sensitivity of the Big Bird) being fixed internally yet?  As much as I love the Tin Shield, and I do love me some Tin Shield, it'd be nice not to have to redo an entire DCS Liberation template file to use it over the Big Bird. 

[Flappie]

I have no news to share at the moment.

[McCallaway]

Do note that this seems to happen much more in multiplayer (when connected to a remote server) than in solo (or even with a self-hosted mission).