Is the Phantom a dogfighter?

[CybrSlydr]

How is this plane as a dogfighter? I know it's a massive, heavy plane with massive, powerful engines - but can it fight in a turn a bit or is the Rhino a pig?

 

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[Kalasnkova74]

1 hour ago, CybrSlydr said:

 

How is this plane as a dogfighter? I know it's a massive, heavy plane with massive, powerful engines - but can it fight in a turn a bit or is the Rhino a pig?

 

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It’s a sledgehammer ; the F-4 does a lot of damage in a visual fight, but only when wielded smartly. It can win a turning engagement, with intelligent application of power and energy management.

 

As many over Southeast Asia found out the hard way, playing the nose pointing game is a great way to end up dead or needing a ride back to base.

[Gambit21]

1 hour ago, CybrSlydr said:

 

How is this plane as a dogfighter? I know it's a massive, heavy plane with massive, powerful engines - but can it fight in a turn a bit or is the Rhino a pig?

 

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For it's time, it did the trick in the hands of a competent pilot.

Just read Robin Old's book, or other F-4 pilot memoirs. Using the vertical etc they held their own.

 

If you're talking about E-Games, then YMMV and that will depend as much on your brain as anything else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dragon1-1]

5 hours ago, Gambit21 said:

Just read Robin Old's book, or other F-4 pilot memoirs. Using the vertical etc they held their own.

Note that Robin Olds and the Vietnam jocks flew the hard wing F-4s. At first, we'll get slatted variants, which are much better at pointing their nose, changes that were informed by those exact experiences. Doesn't mean you can win a Lufbery circle with a MiG-17, but it does mean you can hold your own against contemporaries, and not worry about not being able to turn. These upgrades do have drag, so this will mean lower top speed and more loss in turns, but this should make the Phantom easier to fight in.

[Dannyvandelft]

Against adversaries of it's time, yes. Against more modern jets, not so much. If you're planning on flying the Phantom in a present setting, I'd stick to a SEAD/DEAD or strike role.

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[WinterH]

As with everything, it depends on what do you compare it against. Against what's generally called 4th gen, teen series etc, nah, it's not young to do well.

Compare it to what we have/will have in future that fits its generation, F-4E with slats will be one of the best dogfighters imo.

Yes, it's big, heavy, has reservations about this whole high AoA thing etc. So it'll be difficult to get the best out of I assume. But at the same time it has a crapload of power and speed, AND when managed right, its instantaneous turn rate is equal or better than anything in its gen, and the sustained turn rate is pretty much better than all AFAIK.

Of course it'll depend on what you fight. Mirage F1, MiG-21Bis, F-5E are all close enough to you in performance and agility. MiG-19 and upcoming MiG-17 can turn better in a slow fight, but F-4 is way faster than either, so using the vertical plane and adopting a more hit/run kind of approach may be an option etc.

At least these are my quasi-educated guesses, we'll see soon enough I guess 

[nuNce]

2 hours ago, Dannyvandelft said:

Against adversaries of it's time, yes. Against more modern jets, not so much. If you're planning on flying the Phantom in a present setting, I'd stick to a SEAD/DEAD or strike role.

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Sorry, your picture was incomplete.

Edited October 31, 2023 by nuNce

[Zad Fnark]

3 minutes ago, nuNce said:

Sorry, your picture was incomplete.

 

lol...

The MiG never seems that way when I fly it.

[Buzzer1977]

18 minutes ago, Zad Fnark said:

lol...

The MiG never seems that way when I fly it.

MiG-21 in a flat spin

[Bremspropeller]

It all depends on your frame of reference. If all you've flown so far was a Viper or Hornet, then you'll be in for a world of pain.

If you have "prepared" and started flying contemporary fighters (F1, F-5, MiG-19 and MiG-21) then you'll have a much easier transition and you'll probably have an idea of what you're doing and where to focus on to get better.

It's one of the grudges I have with all the BFM-tutorial videos showing Vipers with HMS and AIM-9Xs.

The F-4 has a pretty good package for it's time, but your SA will nonetheless be eroded down to a radar, the RWR and good ole Eyeball Mk.1* - better get used to that quick.

___

*Geeks may throw in the TISEO and Jester Mk 2. That brings up a question: Will TISEO only be available on the later E?

[Gunfreak]

In air to air, it holds it own up to around 1980, when the MiG29 shows up on redfoce, and later in the 80s when the Su27 shows up. 
On blue side the F14 is better at everything I would assume except maybe SEAD/DEAD, and once the 15, 16 and 28 shows up it's toast in air to air, but still probably the best bombtruck until the A6 and A7 shows up in DCS

[Kalasnkova74]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

It all depends on your frame of reference. If all you've flown so far was a Viper or Hornet, then you'll be in for a world of pain.

Get ready, because once it drops lots of people used to 4th Gen hardware WILL scream about losing nose-pointing contests to MiGs (& everything else).
 

“hurr durr the F-4E sux can’t win a 1 circle with a MiG-21” 

[G.J.S]

Just remember the old axiom - fight to YOUR strengths, not your opponents. Fight YOUR way, not his . . .

[CrazyGman]

Loadout will be very important. Remember in Vietnam the US and allies had vastly more fighters and aircraft, and would use that to their advantage, so in that scenario you can load your aircraft for as much staying power as possible and just create a literal wall of jets and missile flying toward the enemy. If one ememy jet starts to dogfight, 2 friendly F-4s get on it's six and delete them.

With the jet naked, it's pretty decent vs contemporaries, espessially using the vertical. The slats will help it float better, but probably not as good as the MiG-21 which is well known for pretty much becoming a kite at low speed, and still be able have good nose authority. I'd expect the F-4E with slats to have similar low speed characteristics as the F1.

The main thing I think players will struggle with is loadout, and having a good loadout rather then strapping a ton of missiles and fuel to your jet. A MiG-21Bis with 6 missiles and full internal fuel is a pig, and will struggle against a 2 missile F-5 with 3/4 fuel. Balance that out with the MiG-21 with just 2-4 missiles and 3/4 fuel and the fight is now much more even.

For the F-4 the Sparrows are recessed in which will help drag and they are on the fuselage which helps wieght distribution so they won't hit performance as hard as say a pair of super 530F's  on the wing stations of a Mirage F1, but it's still 4 heavy missiles so be aware of that. The sidewinders are a bit more of a problem, they still have the same double rack regardless if you take 1 or 2, so while you will have reduced weight and drag with only 2x aim 9s instead of 4 you still have the drag from the rack.

I feel with the F-4 I would do boom and through passes, untill your down to 4 missiles, and at least 3/4 fuel, after that I think you'll have the power and be nimble enough to go toe to toe with a Mirage F1 or a MiG-21 bis or a F-5.

Try to dogfight before that and your going to need friends to help.

Edited October 31, 2023 by CrazyGman

[SgtPappy]

45 minutes ago, CrazyGman said:

Loadout will be very important. Remember in Vietnam the US and allies had vastly more fighters and aircraft, and would use that to their advantage, so in that scenario you can load your aircraft for as much staying power as possible and just create a literal wall of jets and missile flying toward the enemy. If one ememy jet starts to dogfight, 2 friendly F-4s get on it's six and delete them.

With the jet naked, it's pretty decent vs contemporaries, espessially using the vertical. The slats will help it float better, but probably not as good as the MiG-21 which is well known for pretty much becoming a kite at low speed, and still be able have good nose authority. I'd expect the F-4E with slats to have similar low speed characteristics as the F1.

The main thing I think players will struggle with is loadout, and having a good loadout rather then strapping a ton of missiles and fuel to your jet. A MiG-21Bis with 6 missiles and full internal fuel is a pig, and will struggle against a 2 missile F-5 with 3/4 fuel. Balance that out with the MiG-21 with just 2-4 missiles and 3/4 fuel and the fight is now much more even.

For the F-4 the Sparrows are recessed in which will help drag and they are on the fuselage which helps wieght distribution so they won't hit performance as hard as say a pair of super 530F's  on the wing stations of a Mirage F1, but it's still 4 heavy missiles so be aware of that. The sidewinders are a bit more of a problem, they still have the same double rack regardless if you take 1 or 2, so while you will have reduced weight and drag with only 2x aim 9s instead of 4 you still have the drag from the rack.

I feel with the F-4 I would do boom and through passes, untill your down to 4 missiles, and at least 3/4 fuel, after that I think you'll have thevpower and be nimble enough to go toe to toe with a Mirage F1 or a MiG-21 bis or a F-5.

Try to dogfight before that and your going to need friends to help.

 

This is a good point. I'm probably going to end up carrying 2x AIM-7E and 4xAIM-9J/P to save on some weight. Even at ~60% fuel and these weapons, the F-4E should be able to beat the F-5 and MiG-21bis in a 2 circle at all but the highest altitudes per RL data.

I'm willing to be there may be a madman out there who will carry 4 Sparrows and nothing else for a sleek and still very deadly F-4. We have yet to see if HB's wear system will affect missiles, though if it's an option, I doubt MP servers will use it since it will only affect the F-4.

[Gunfreak]

Not really sure the Sparrows will be much use at all in a dogfight. I'm sure the E will get some of the more modern Sparrows. But still not great dogfighting tools.

[CrazyGman]

58 minutes ago, SgtPappy said:

This is a good point. I'm probably going to end up carrying 2x AIM-7E and 4xAIM-9J/P to save on some weight. Even at ~60% fuel and these weapons, the F-4E should be able to beat the F-5 and MiG-21bis in a 2 circle at all but the highest altitudes per RL data.

I'm willing to be there may be a madman out there who will carry 4 Sparrows and nothing else for a sleek and still very deadly F-4. We have yet to see if HB's wear system will affect missiles, though if it's an option, I doubt MP servers will use it since it will only affect the F-4.

I still strongly feel The F-4E will still struggle vs the Bis at low altitude espessially, below 4000m or 13000 feet. The Bis has an emergancy after burner that once you flip the switch in front of the throttle will activate at altitudes below 13000 feet giving it a 7100kgf instead of 6800kgf which increases the lower you go and the closer to mach 1 you get. which I have tested in game and can confirm. It maxes out to 9900kgf when your on the deck and near mach 1.0. In a dogfight in game your probably looking at about a 7500-8000kgf in most dogfight situations with it active. This gives it a significant power to weight boost over the F-4E. As well if you deploy takeoff flaps combined with the emergancy burner the MiG-21Bis at decent weight can easily win a slow fight vs a F-86sabre as the Bis can pretty much cut throttle to avoid an overshot and still float, and then put on the power when it needs to. So as the F-4 I would keep speed and try to keep the fight higher up to make the eburner lose effectiveness or not even engage, and avoid getting the fight slow down low unless you are already glued on the 6 ready to gun them

Edited October 31, 2023 by CrazyGman

[CrazyGman]

14 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

Not really sure the Sparrows will be much use at all in a dogfight. I'm sure the E will get some of the more modern Sparrows. But still not great dogfighting tools.

Your right they won't in a lot of cases, espessially the 7E but they are their to help your team with you doing 3rd party kills. Best strat would have one teammate staggered back, and have the first teamate take the fight vertical, once the opponent also goes vertical, lock him up with the ACM mode and fire a AIM-7 when he's above you so that you won't lose lock to ground clutter. In a dogfight, yeah they are basically just extra weight but at least they are on the fuselage in indents so the aren't as big a hit to performance. Not like a F1 where if you merge, the big sticks on the wings are getting jettisoned.

Edited October 31, 2023 by CrazyGman

[WinterH]

AIM-7E2 was called the "dogfight sparrow" wasn't it? Sparrow has pretty good acceleration, and with those huge control surfaces, I think it was supposed to be a slightly more agile missile than later AMRAAMs. But then both of these are just anectodal stuff from here and there, and not from anything we can consider a primary source.

In the end, even if Sparrow is good as a dogfight weapon, the requirement of holding a lock for 4 seconds before firing one would probably make them very dogfight-unfriendly, and that 4 seconds stuff is indeed from a primary source: F-4E manuals.

[Dragon1-1]

It was only "dogfight" in that it wouldn't be completely useless in a fighter engagement, unlike the preceding versions. You basically have to line up behind the target, keep it locked, and IIRC that version still had a G limit, so flying reasonably straight. The Phantom is still of the heaters and guns generation, and the heaters aren't that amazing, either.

[Gunfreak]

36 minutes ago, CrazyGman said:

Your right they won't in a lot of cases, espessially the 7E but they are their to help your team with you doing 3rd party kills. Best strat would have one teammate staggered back, and have the first teamate take the fight vertical, once the opponent also goes vertical, lock him up with the ACM mode and fire a AIM-7 when he's above you so that you won't lose lock to ground clutter. In a dogfight, yeah they are basically just extra weight but at least they are on the fuselage in indents so the aren't as big a hit to performance. Not like a F1 where if you merge, the big sticks on the wings are getting jettisoned.

 

Will we get access to even earlier sparrows. The count to 4 Mississippi after lock on Sparrows? So we can role-playing vietnam?

[CrazyGman]

17 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

Will we get access to even earlier sparrows. The count to 4 Mississippi after lock on Sparrows? So we can role-playing vietnam?

I mean the AI F-4Es have them. They said they were going to do "all" the weapons if i remember correctly from the pre-order trailer. It's a pretty iconic missiles, so I thing AIM-9E and AIM-7E is pretty likely.

[Dragon1-1]

I only hope the AI has the same launch restrictions as players do. I've been shot in the face with AIM-9Ps by F-5s before, despite them being supposed to be rear aspect (this was a while ago, so maybe it's fixed). Even if they could theoretically get a tone from head on, this kind of thing would have been an extremely unreliable shot IRL. 

[CrazyGman]

15 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I only hope the AI has the same launch restrictions as players do. I've been shot in the face with AIM-9Ps by F-5s before, despite them being supposed to be rear aspect (this was a while ago, so maybe it's fixed). Even if they could theoretically get a tone from head on, this kind of thing would have been an extremely unreliable shot IRL. 

It wasn't a AIM-9P5 was it? Those are front aspect 

[Dragon1-1]

No, it wasn't, I checked. It was the regular P.