investigating Iron Bombs Fall Short with AUTO mode (CCRP).

[Steinsch]

Does anyone have the same problem?

The Auto/CCRP mode works perfectly when the plane starts hot or airborne. Bombs (mk-82-83-84) hit targeted points very accurately at 5,000, 10,000 and 15,000 ft, no problem.

But if I cold start the plane myself, or initiate an autostart, bombs fall short systematically by a wide margin (like a mile). It used to work very well with cold Hornets but not anymore, at least for me.

Mission is post 1994, SATNAV is enabled.

Before I submit trk files, I just would like to know if this is a known issue.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Steinsch

[Tholozor]

Without a track, we can't know if it's a problem on the sim's side or the user's side.

[Steinsch]

On 11/30/2023 at 3:28 AM, Tholozor said:

Without a track, we can't know if it's a problem on the sim's side or the user's side.

Here are the tracks.

No problem with air and hot start. However, bombs dropped in CCRP mode with auto and manual start always fall short by a lot.

I would like to know if my flow is now incorrect or this is a bug.

AirStart_CCRP_OK.trk ManualStart_CCRP_FAIL.trk AutoStart_CCRP_FAIL.trk HotStart_CCRP_OK.trk

[Steinsch]

Has anyone been able to reproduce?

[norman99]

I've just been practicing lofting Mk82s and found mine all went long, so .

I plan on doing some more drops tomorrow, so I'll see what I get.

[oldcrusty]

8 hours ago, norman99 said:

I've just been practicing lofting Mk82s and found mine all went long, so .

I plan on doing some more drops tomorrow, so I'll see what I get.

What you will get is more of the same.  Currently, diving deliveries hit short, level deliveries are reasonably accurate and 'lofting' (auto - w/o any pullup cues) hits long.  A while back lofting was the most accurate... at least for me. 

[norman99]

So a level delivery is the only accurate delivery method for unguided bombs in the Hornet at the moment?

I guess most people primarily use guided munitions in DCS, so maybe this isn't a concern to many, but it's kind of frustrating that a fundamental part of the Hornet still isn't preforming as required.

For anyone with the Viper, does it suffer from similar inaccuracies with unguided bombs, across differing delivery profiles?

[Steinsch]

13 hours ago, norman99 said:

So a level delivery is the only accurate delivery method for unguided bombs in the Hornet at the moment?

Level delivery (when the jet is started cold) is not even accurate for me, as track files show.

[SlipHavoc]

Interesting...  I also verified this.  AUTO (CCRP) mode works fine from an air start and drops on target, or at least very close.  But from a cold ground start, it's way off, usually dropping very short.  I tried Mk-82, Mk-82 AIR, Mk-82 Snakeye, Mk-83, Mk-84, and GBU-12, most had the same problem.  The exceptions were the Mk-82 AIR and Snakeye, which dropped extremely long even though I had the DRAG setting at FF (not RET).  The GBU-12s dropped short, but if they picked up the laser they would still hit.  I also tried designating the target with WPDSG, visually through the HUD, with the A/G radar in EXP3 mode, and with an ATFLIR pod, and all seemed to show the same inaccuracy, so it doesn't seem to be a designation issue.  And I tried setting the HSI to POS/GPS instead of POS/AINS, but that didn't seem to have an effect either.

I have often done toss bombing attacks with the F-18 with both laser and dumb bombs, although haven't for probably a couple months or so since I've mostly been using the F-15E for those attacks since it came out.  However the toss attacks were always very accurate.  In the past, CCIP accuracy has been a major problem (it used to be good until a patch a couple years ago, but the October 19th 2023 patch seemed to fix it and CCIP has been accurate since then.  The November 16th patch also mentions changes to the AUTO bomb mode.  I wonder if something in one of those two patches got messed up.

Edited December 8, 2023 by SlipHavoc

[Kurnass1977]

Look like even JDAM in TOO mode with TGP designation are affected.

[Discrete]

For dumb bombs change in the HSI POS/AINS to POS/GPS

[SlipHavoc]

19 hours ago, Discrete said:

For dumb bombs change in the HSI POS/AINS to POS/GPS

Did you try that? Because when I tried it, it didn't help.

[LastRifleRound]

No way the Hornet still has bombing issues? It's only been 4 years and it's early access so you deserve it. Oh, it's released? Well it's your fault because open beta. It happens in the stable version, too? Ummm....bombs aren't that accurate. Real pilots don't use auto or something. Need more tracks, thread closed because we can't reproduce and if we can it's supposed to do that anyway. You don't know it's a bug because you don't know the exact version, revision and favorite kool-aid flavor of everyone who worked on this Lot Hornet's software. Go TOO ripple 43 JDAMs or something.

In all seriousness, try making sure the temperature in your mission is 20C, there is a glaring error in certain designations at lower temperatures that I'm not sure is throwing the aimpoint off (it's always short when using radar and waypoints). Probably not the issue as in the Viper you can correct the designation in the hud by slewing on target before release but it will at least prevent the two bugs from compounding on one another, as the temp bug is a universal DCS issue at the moment.

I've posted 4 or 5 bug threads about this issue in its many forms throughout the years. I'll tool around tonight and see if I can't add more tracks for you, though at this point I'm not sure it will help. It's been years of the same issue.

[norman99]

Now we have to set the temp to 20⁰C for unguided bombs delivery symbology to be realistically acurate ? I genuinely hope you're kidding. Someone already suggested changing POS/AINS to POS/GPS, now this?

When do we stop accepting a band-aid, on top of a band-aid, on top of a band-aid?

[oldcrusty]

Today I only had enough time for a short hop. It was enough though to get me confused again. The temp was always 20'C, in previous tests and today for all types of deliveries. In level deliveries, AGR ranging was not a factor. Regardless of how the target was designated (WPDSG or FLIR) it seemed like the FLIR's laser was providing the range.

Today, when approaching the target locked as WPDSG I decided to re-designate with FLIR (area bracket then TDC) Just to make sure, I undesignated WPDSG and repeated the FLIR lock, hehe.    Both level and dive drops were bullseyes!   Probably just today, lol.   I'll do some more test runs tomorrow.

[oldcrusty]

The bug is definitely there... where? I don't know.  However for some reason I was able to hit the target (tank) with Mk82s pretty consistently in 2 tests in a row.  All I did differently was re-designating with FLIR on top of WPDSG.  We shouldn't have to do this tho'  I'll post a vid in the screens and vids forum.

 

 

 

[Steinsch]

Thank you all for the feedback and tests.

@BIGNEWY, would it be possible to have it looked into? Tracks are available, and it seems the problem affects other players too.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi all, we will take a look. 

 

thanks