Your favourite way to get someone off you six?

[windsurfingstew]

(Hopefully I've got the right part of the forum for this question.)

Your favourite way to get someone off you six? In single player, I have a mission where I'm in an F-15 and dogfighting against an AI Su-27. Once it is on my six I find it difficult to shake.

Clearly when there is a mismatch in aircraft specs, you may be able to outrun or out turn the other aircraft. But when planes are similarly matched, what methods do you use to get someone off your six?

(I looked for a fart dispenser, but there isn't one in DCS!)

[Hiob]

It's called "control zone" for a reason. 

Assuming the pursuing aircraft doesn't make a mistake (not controlling closure e.g.), the only way to shake someone on your six is to outturn it, when it is guns only and your aircraft has the superior turnrate. (or maybe outclimb/outrun with superior thrust - but that is all very dangerous)

However. No (real) person is immune to error and you can of course try to force your pursuer into a mistake.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Hiob

[Bremspropeller]

Just hit the brakes and he'll fly right by.

[Hiob]

Just now, Bremspropeller said:

Just hit the brakes and he'll fly right by.

[windsurfingstew]

15 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Just hit the brakes and he'll fly right by.

You mean like this?
 

 

[Hiob]

The guy with the guns saying "thank you for the maximum hit box" as he gently squeezes the trigger.....  

[LooseSeal]

If Top Gun Maverick taught us anything, it's to just yank the stick to either side, do a little roll and provoke intense dizziness and nausea in the pursuing pilot.

[windsurfingstew]

21 minutes ago, Hiob said:

It's called "control zone" for a reason. 

Assuming the pursuing aircraft doesn't make a mistake (not controlling closure e.g.), the only way to shake someone on your six is to outturn it, when it is guns only and your aircraft has the superior turnrate. (or maybe outclimb/outrun with superior thrust - but that is all very dangerous)

However. No (real) person is immune to error and you can of course try to force your pursuer into a mistake.

 

So, you're pretty much trapped then. You can hope for a mistake, or attempt an outrun, out climb, or out turn but it's likely futile. Could hope for a wingman to help. I guess all I can do is fly as erratically as possible without losing too much speed, ie making it as hard as possible for him to judge lead for his cannon, but that still leaves me open and slower for an IR missile shot.

[Hiob]

7 minutes ago, windsurfingstew said:

So, you're pretty much trapped then. You can hope for a mistake, or attempt an outrun, out climb, or out turn but it's likely futile. Could hope for a wingman to help. I guess all I can do is fly as erratically as possible without losing too much speed, ie making it as hard as possible for him to judge lead for his cannon, but that still leaves me open and slower for an IR missile shot.

I would think so. I assume in RL the fight is over at this point. (Movies don't count as a reference). Double so when you take into account, that in RL every aircraft carries some boomsticks.

Edit:

Lol - I don't know if that counts as "solution".... I'm by no means a subject matter expert! 

Edited December 4, 2023 by Hiob

[windsurfingstew]

I guess my question was a bit like asking, 'When playing chess, and all I've got left is my king, and the other player has all of their pieces, how do I go about winning?' The answer is, 'You probably can't, so try not to get into that scenario to begin with'.

[Hiob]

True.

What I learned from random pieces on the internet (like clips and interviews) - in RL compared to DCS - fights are usually wrapped up much quicker. Basically one, maximum two turns and the fight is over... 

Just now, windsurfingstew said:

In reality, I'd imagine that going from full afterburners to then cutting the throttle and deploying the airbrakes would probably catch out most humans who were hard up your tail.

Only when they are waaaaay too close to begin with. "'hitting the brakes" is a movie thing.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Hiob

[windsurfingstew]

39 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Just hit the brakes and he'll fly right by.

In reality, I'd imagine that going from full afterburners to then cutting the throttle and deploying the airbrakes would probably catch out most humans who were hard up your tail.

7 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Only when they are waaaaay too close to begin with. "'hitting the brakes" is a movie thing.

And, once you've hit the brakes, you're wide open to a missile attack, as evasive maneuvers usually require you to start with some speed.

Thanks. This has been helpful.

Edited December 4, 2023 by windsurfingstew

[Bremspropeller]

Maximum speed loss is not incurred just by idling and popping those hopeless, pesky boards, but by doing an AoA-excursion at a high pitch rate. Preferably lead by an out of plane-maneuver (like rolling off your lift vector), so your trajectory momentarily carries you out of the other guy's snap-shot line. Going for a boot full of rudder will also take you some place else, but don't overdo it, as a spin makes for an interesting target-practise for the other guy.

The only way of surviving the guy inside your control-zone is getting dangerous and desparately creating angles and closure-issues, which is hard given he's in the control zone. Be prepared to do something about being out of airspeed and the other guy going vertical next. You're not dead 100% here, but you'll actively have to work in order not to die.

 

Stop flying with and against all aspect heaters. It kills all the fun.

[Xilon_x]

It's a bit of an exaggerated technique but it could also be achievable.

 

[AddyRazz]

10 minutes ago, Xilon_x said:

It's a bit of an exaggerated technique but it could also be achievable.

 

haha love it, only in Battlefield!!

[windsurfingstew]

29 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

by doing an AoA-excursion at a high pitch rate. Preferably lead by an out of plane-maneuver (like rolling off your lift vector), so your trajectory momentarily carries you out of the other guy's snap-shot line.

Any chance you could be a little more specific on this? So, you're starting flat and level headed North with the enemy plane behind you. You mean pitching up very hard to say 60 degrees up, then rolling out and ending up headed West (or East)?

Edited December 4, 2023 by windsurfingstew

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, windsurfingstew said:

Any chance you could be a little more specific on this? So, you're starting flat and level headed North with the enemy plane behind you. You mean pitching up very hard to say 60 degrees up, then rolling out and ending up headed West (or East)?

 

I think, what he means is - don't just pull on the stick, for that always brings you perpendicular to your wings and is easily anticipated by your opponent. Instead try to do "out of plane" maneuvers that force your pursuer to do more than just pull back to hit you. Make use of the rudder.....

Basically: "Jink!" (quote by Mover). Be unpredictable.

[Bremspropeller]

1 hour ago, windsurfingstew said:

Any chance you could be a little more specific on this? So, you're starting flat and level headed North with the enemy plane behind you. You mean pitching up very hard to say 60 degrees up, then rolling out and ending up headed West (or East)?

 

I mean something different.

Picture you in front of an opponent in the CZ, your and his lift-vectors in-plane.

First, you'll roll 90° in any direction (get your lift-vector out of plane) and pull hard, inducing a high pitch-rate. This will bleed the first 50-100kts. Then you roll again (possibly needing rudder due to the AoA) 90° out of plane - possibly into the same direction as before to continuosly create another angles-problem - and pull hard again.

This will make a tracking or even snap-shot solution hard for the guy behind you, because instead of just pulling lead (as in you just pulling up in front of him), he'll also need to rotate his nose around to acquire a positive guns-solution. Just rolling won't do it, though, as he'll also have to create a lead angle.

By you constantly staying out of plane and creating an overshoot condition, you'll bring him into an unusable situation quickly. The hardest part is to not lose control and having a plan for what might happen next, as you'll find yourself with less energy and hence less options.

[Kang]

I personally just die, that seems to do the trick quite reliably.

[windsurfingstew]

29 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

I mean something different.

Picture you in front of an opponent in the CZ, your and his lift-vectors in-plane.

First, you'll roll 90° in any direction (get your lift-vector out of plane) and pull hard, inducing a high pitch-rate. This will bleed the first 50-100kts. Then you roll again (possibly needing rudder due to the AoA) 90° out of plane - possibly into the same direction as before to continuosly create another angles-problem - and pull hard again.

Thank you. I think I understand now. If I put myself in the follower's position, I can see it is most difficult to pursue and get a shot when your lift-vectors are not parallel-ish (ie not both pointing toward the centre of the same turn in the same plane). So, if you can get your lift vector out of plane, in two dimensions, not just one, then it is even harder.

Also, I don't usually use the rudder much, other than for landing and take off. This is a good tool again to make things difficult for your pursuer. I think I might set up a mission to try this.

Edited December 4, 2023 by windsurfingstew

[Hiob]

The hardest part is probably to guess the distance and energy state of your pursuer right. The further he is behind, the less impressed he will be with your maneuvering.

[SharpeXB]

The best defensive maneuver is the most basic, especially against the AI. A break turn, a hard turn into the bandit, will force an overshoot. Then reverse the turn or use a roll onto their six. You’ll always have better turning performance than the bandit if he’s closing on you with higher airspeed, which if he’s the attacker is already the case most likely. Break and watch for the bandit to cross your tail, that’s the sign he’s overshot you. Then reverse. 

[Bremspropeller]

30 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The best defensive maneuver is the most basic, especially against the AI. A break turn, a hard turn into the bandit, will force an overshoot. Then reverse the turn or use a roll onto their six. You’ll always have better turning performance than the bandit if he’s closing on you with higher airspeed, which if he’s the attacker is already the case most likely. Break and watch for the bandit to cross your tail, that’s the sign he’s overshot you. Then reverse. 

Generally a good advice, until you're seeing one of the most awe-inspiring sights this game has to offer:

An Ace AI MiG-21 doing a three-circle on you (beating you at the one- and two-circle game at the same time) and placing one of those sweet 23mm-pills into your noggin.

[DD_Fenrir]

4 hours ago, windsurfingstew said:

(Hopefully I've got the right part of the forum for this question.)

Your favourite way to get someone off you six? In single player, I have a mission where I'm in an F-15 and dogfighting against an AI Su-27. Once it is on my six I find it difficult to shake.

Clearly when there is a mismatch in aircraft specs, you may be able to outrun or out turn the other aircraft. But when planes are similarly matched, what methods do you use to get someone off your six?

(I looked for a fart dispenser, but there isn't one in DCS!)

As previously mentioned, you should be avoiding them getting to your control zone in the first place; however, for those times when I make a mistake or get jumped, the only recourse I have is to do Guns-D manoevres, with the aim of avoiding getting hit whilst sucking the bandit in close enough that a sudden hard AoA excursion might neutralise the fight.

It really is the last (nee only) resort.

There's a lot of Cons: 

1. Requires the bandit to not have Fox-2s (chancey that one...  ),
2. Requires excellent timing,
3. Requires you to predict exactly when the bandit is going to fire,
4. Requires not burning your E off too soon so you have sufficient left for the final big excursion to force the overshoot,
5. Requires the bandit to be too fixated on getting his reticle on you and neglecting his attention to his closure,
6. Requires the bandit being unaware of what you are doing or being so knife in the teeth he forgets,
7. Doesn't account for the spray and pray gunners out there...
8. ...Or the lucky snapshot from a guy pulling 'Kentucky Windage'.
9. The closer he gets the less Time of Flight his bullets have, so you have to get even better the closer he gets.
10. Will leave you low E with limited manouevering potential even if it works.

What is Guns-D?

Shorthand for Guns Defensive manouevres.

When you see the bandits nose moving from Pure to Lead get ready and the moment you think he's going to fire you get out of plane and make a small energy excursion.

What does that mean? You need to avoid his shot by being in a different place than his pipper is predicting you'll be when he fires his guns. His bullets take time to get to you so be somewhere else when they do.

How do you do this:

1. Roll in random direction, somewhere in the region of 30°-120°
2. Give a brief pull to establish a new plane of motion,
3. But remember to relax the stick again to reduce your energy consumption.

DO NOT REVERSE!

And again in case you missed it because it's most important:

DO NOT REVERSE!

The bandit will now have to reset his jet to get back into plane. When he does watch for the nose moving from Pure to Lead again and rinse wash and repeat.

What often happens is a bandit will be so focussed in getting his sight on, he'll neglect his closure discipline and end up coming up on you quicker than he meant to, as you're nibbling away at your energy state using energy excursions and geometry. He's pulling lead also, compounding his closure issue.

It's up to you at the right time - and there's no secret sauce to judging that, you kinda just have to feel it - you commit to a deep energy excursion pull, hard to the lift limit, hope to get a flightpath overshoot which then potentially gives you an opening to reverse and neutralise.

If that was all successful what happens next depends on his E and yours; a flat or rolling scissor could result if you have really caught them by suprise but that's the best case. Otherwise just hope he doesn't have too much of an Energy budget over you and knows how to use it.

The Pros are that if you can do the Guns-D successfully, even if he does keep his closure under control and cannot force an overshoot, you could force a miss so many times that you run the enemy out of ammo, or fuel or both.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by DD_Fenrir

[Dragon1-1]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

You’ll always have better turning performance than the bandit if he’s closing on you with higher airspeed, which if he’s the attacker is already the case most likely. 

For a peer match this work only if he made a mistake of closing in too fast. Which is admittedly a common mistake that's easy to make, but it has a number of well known counters, too.

DCS AI might fall for it (unless it's one of the MiGs, which cheat), but a human should be able to counter with a high yo-yo or some other technique to control closure. Of course, if you have a better turning plane, the equation changes.

1 hour ago, Hiob said:

The hardest part is probably to guess the distance and energy state of your pursuer right. The further he is behind, the less impressed he will be with your maneuvering.

True, but he's not going to shoot you from a mile away unless it's a heater fight (in which case you're dead the moment he can see your tailpipe). That's what supermaneuverability is really good for: moving the control zone out of the gun's WEZ. 

58 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:

The Pros are that if you can do the Guns-D successfully, even if he does keep his closure under control and cannot force an overshoot, you could force a miss so many times that you run the enemy out of ammo, or fuel or both.

I found this especially effective with WWII fighters, where spray and pray is less useful due to generally lower rates of fire, smaller bullets and less complex aircraft. More likely than not, the enemy will poke a few holes in your wings and not in your brain, which is certainly a success, particularly if he's flying something like the Spit, with wing guns and not a whole lot of cannon ammo. Ultimately, if nothing else, this technique buys time, which in a larger engagement can be enough.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Dragon1-1