AIM-120 Still Too Easy to Notch?

[GGTharos]

Because people complained that it made the missile too good.

[Hobel]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb GGTharos:

Because people complained that it made the missile too good.

Who says it and where are these statements?
Even when Aim54 was very strong back then, people were more likely to ask counter instead of claiming it was OP or something like that.

[okopanja]

3 hours ago, GGTharos said:

This capability had been put in and was later removed.   Or perhaps there exist other bugs causing issues here, or incomplete features regarding the behavior of the range and doppler gates which are simulated for at least the 120 and I believe the 7 as well.

The capability to reacquire is still there and not removed. The actual expirience depends on weather person plays in SP or MP. If later the things become tricky due the network latencies on shooter, server and target side. This often leads to the situation that trajectories of the same missile in the 3 "universes" are not the same, including the speeds, position and movement angles.

As for RWRs some of them are too precise. If they had up to 10-12% of variance notching would have been more difficult.

On the other side RWRs often give warning in MP too late or not at all, due to desync(they are operating in target universe).

 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by okopanja

[MARLAN_]

1 hour ago, GGTharos said:

Because people complained that it made the missile too good.

I'm sure you're already aware (i.e. just commenting on that people complained), so I'm just adding for the sake of the thread:

One should not expect to be successful defeating an AMRAAM with a notch in almost any situation except the absolute most perfect situations (the real defense uses BVR timelines and kinetic defeats - this by the way is public release information).

People who are complaining really need to be ignored by ED, this is meant to be (as far as I'm aware) a digital combat simulator not a "hardcore airquake" video game.

Edited December 18, 2023 by MARLAN_

[GGTharos]

2 hours ago, Hobel said:

Who says it and where are these statements?
Even when Aim54 was very strong back then, people were more likely to ask counter instead of claiming it was OP or something like that.

You can search through the forums.  It was a while ago and I don't recall any more whether it was on the English or Russian ones any longer.

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

10 hours ago, MARLAN_ said:

One should not expect to be successful defeating an AMRAAM with a notch in almost any situation except the absolute most perfect situations (the real defense uses BVR timelines and kinetic defeats - this by the way is public release information).

Correct, notching an AMRAAM should be a fluke not a certainty. In game it currently appears we have the latter. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by DCS FIGHTER PILOT

[Coxy_99]

Its called the notch game for a reason because its so easy a 3 year old can do it, Please dont chop my head off because i mention FC3, But run the same with the f15C and 27 SPO out of interest, You will find you will have to use your eyes to find the missile outside the pit to even play the notch game. Because the FC3 rwrs do not show the exact missile position. And no im not trolling before someone gives me 10 points for off topic.....

[Ramius007]

Do you guys think it's more important to have notch mechanic weakened over lets say random missile failures that happen even in most advanced weapons but are not modelled in DCS? TBF, I expect AMRAAM's to not be fooled by simple tricks mentioned here and palying a bit of devil advocate, but thare are many other variables that we are not awere of, but are decreasing missiles efficiency, those can be things like humidity, harsh field enviroment , poor production methods, decrypted by enemy guidance system and ECM jammers adjusted to make X missile near useless and so on, new avionics software upgrade making missiel to not work, and so on, most of those things never get modelled, and having missiles being not some sort of wunderwaffe is part of DCS selling point, and it's REALISM...

[Ironhand]

16 minutes ago, Ramius007 said:

…I expect AMRAAM's to not be fooled by simple tricks mentioned here and palying a bit of devil advocate, but thare are many other variables that we are not awere of, but are decreasing missiles efficiency, those can be things like humidity, harsh field enviroment , poor production methods, decrypted by enemy guidance system and ECM jammers adjusted to make X missile near useless and so on, new avionics software upgrade making missiel to not work, and so on…

Unfortunately, the result would be a missile that “should” have hit in a given situation but didn’t for no apparent reason. For instance, the target notched it and it didn’t hit. Or the target barrel rolled and it didn’t hit. And players would be complaining about the bug because of a mistaken cause and effect.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Ironhand

[Hobel]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Ramius007:

Do you guys think it's more important to have notch mechanic weakened over lets say random missile failures that happen even in most advanced weapons but are not modelled in DCS? TBF, I expect AMRAAM's to not be fooled by simple tricks mentioned here and palying a bit of devil advocate, but thare are many other variables that we are not awere of, but are decreasing missiles efficiency, those can be things like humidity, harsh field enviroment , poor production methods, decrypted by enemy guidance system and ECM jammers adjusted to make X missile near useless and so on, new avionics software upgrade making missiel to not work, and so on, most of those things never get modelled, and having missiles being not some sort of wunderwaffe is part of DCS selling point, and it's REALISM...

Maybe, maybe not.   But that's not the point here, it's an exciting topic that can also be discussed, but please open a new topic for this - I also have my own opinion on this, but it is out of place here

this one is about notch.

[ruxtmp]

5 hours ago, Ramius007 said:

Do you guys think it's more important to have notch mechanic weakened over lets say random missile failures that happen even in most advanced weapons but are not modelled in DCS? TBF, I expect AMRAAM's to not be fooled by simple tricks mentioned here and palying a bit of devil advocate, but thare are many other variables that we are not awere of, but are decreasing missiles efficiency, those can be things like humidity, harsh field enviroment , poor production methods, decrypted by enemy guidance system and ECM jammers adjusted to make X missile near useless and so on, new avionics software upgrade making missiel to not work, and so on, most of those things never get modelled, and having missiles being not some sort of wunderwaffe is part of DCS selling point, and it's REALISM...

Random failures would be great but should be added like the current failures. Also it should be logged as a failure in the mission log otherwise it will cause confusion to no end. These random failures would account for equipment degradation due to all but the ECM adjustments. But every piece of equipment including the planes is considered brand new off the production line in the game. It could be interesting if certain parameters could be tracked as part of a campaign and this modified the probability of failures occurring. I think if ECM was implemented in somewhat close to reality then that too could be added as a probability of success, but ECM is to simplistic at this time.

Edited December 20, 2023 by ruxtmp

[GGTharos]

On 12/19/2023 at 3:49 PM, Ramius007 said:

Do you guys think it's more important to have notch mechanic weakened over lets say random missile failures that happen even in most advanced weapons but are not modelled in DCS? TBF, I expect AMRAAM's to not be fooled by simple tricks mentioned here and palying a bit of devil advocate, but thare are many other variables that we are not awere of, but are decreasing missiles efficiency, those can be things like humidity, harsh field enviroment , poor production methods, decrypted by enemy guidance system and ECM jammers adjusted to make X missile near useless and so on, new avionics software upgrade making missiel to not work, and so on, most of those things never get modelled, and having missiles being not some sort of wunderwaffe is part of DCS selling point, and it's REALISM...

If you don't know the failure modes and statistics of said failures, where's the realism?  It's nothing but another annoying 'feature'.

[Hobel]

Am 16.12.2023 um 19:24 schrieb DCS FIGHTER PILOT:

Been doing some testing lately and it still seems like the AMRAAM (and other ARH missiles) can get notched too easily. As mentioned by others, part of this problem comes from the fact that the RWR's of most planes in game are too accurate. Still, even in planes like the F-14 (where the RWR is much less accurate), notching these missiles is still pretty easy. Another problem that seems to contribute to this is that once active, the missile appears to ignore guidance data from the shooters radar (provided they are still tracking/locking the target), even if the missiles radar loses track. From what I understand (and please correct me if I am wrong), even if the missile loses lock, the shooter should still be able to guide it in until impact (if in STT) or until the missile reacquires the target again. Thoughts? 

 

Also out of curiosity , in game, what is the current velocity gate on the AIM-120 as I would like to do some very basic calculations with this information. 

 

Track Descriptions:

Track One: AIM-120C loses lock and misses F-18 at medium altitude. No chaff or ECM is used in the defense. Additionally, once missile is "notched" missile launch tone terminates providing positive feedback to pilot that "notch" was successful. 

Track Two: AIM-120C loses lock and misses F-18 at low altitude. No chaff or ECM is used in the defense. Additionally, once missile is "notched" missile launch tone terminates providing positive feedback to pilot that "notch" was successful. 

Track Three: AIM-120C loses lock and misses F-14 at low altitude. No ECM is used in the defense. Missile launch tone persistent even while in the "notch". 

Notch One.trk 169.87 kB · 14 Downloads Notch Two.trk 137.18 kB · 13 Downloads Notch Three.trk 146.26 kB · 17 Downloads

 

Hello it seems there have been changes here, tracks One and Three the Missle Hits now

can you test it again and share your experiences?

 

The values in which the Aim120 can reacquire the target 2 times have probably changed from my observation and also seem more dynamic, the closer to the ground the more difficult.

that means before the rv was ~100knots and now the missle can reacquire the target in track 3 scenario already at rv:36 knots

 

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2024 by Hobel

[Exorcet]

On 4/8/2024 at 11:37 PM, GGTharos said:

If you don't know the failure modes and statistics of said failures, where's the realism?  It's nothing but another annoying 'feature'.

Agree with caution at guessing, but with a slider users could at least find values that they like.

[Notso]

On 12/16/2023 at 10:24 AM, DCS FIGHTER PILOT said:

Another problem that seems to contribute to this is that once active, the missile appears to ignore guidance data from the shooters radar (provided they are still tracking/locking the target), even if the missiles radar loses track.

The Missile is SUPPOSED to ignore the fighter's radar once it goes active.  Once the missile is active, your RDR lock is meaningless to what the missile does or doesn't do.

Edited April 13, 2024 by Notso

[Whiskey11]

On 4/13/2024 at 2:30 PM, Notso said:

The Missile is SUPPOSED to ignore the fighter's radar once it goes active.  Once the missile is active, your RDR lock is meaningless to what the missile does or doesn't do.

 

While I don't have hard data available right now (at work), the AIM54 had radar fallback modes which allowed it to continue to guide on reflections from the AWG-9 even if the active seeker lost the lock. 

 

Since the AIM120A was effectively a smaller, digitized AIM54C (hence why TWS modes were tested on the F-14A), I'd be shocked if the AIM120C7 didn't have some sort of launching aircraft radar fallback mode in case the missile lost lock with its own seeker. 

[GGTharos]

22 hours ago, Whiskey11 said:

While I don't have hard data available right now (at work), the AIM54 had radar fallback modes which allowed it to continue to guide on reflections from the AWG-9 even if the active seeker lost the lock. 

Since the AIM120A was effectively a smaller, digitized AIM54C (hence why TWS modes were tested on the F-14A), I'd be shocked if the AIM120C7 didn't have some sort of launching aircraft radar fallback mode in case the missile lost lock with its own seeker. 

This is a bad assumption, and is counter-indicated by what's written in the weapons manual (it reads, keeping lock of the target after MPRF has no effect on Pk) .   Also, the 120A is in no way some miniaturized form on the 54C.  Sure the development may have come from there but the degree of commonality is both completely unknown and what is known is that these two missiles operated on different principles.

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

On 12/19/2023 at 3:49 PM, Ramius007 said:

Just out of curiosity, what do you know that I don’t? Sure there are multiple ECM jamming techniques out there but there are also many ECCM techniques as well. Do you perhaps know of some “all powerful” ECM jamming method that negates all ECCM methods and makes a missile near useless? If so, DCS is nowhere near realistic as most missiles (given enough energy) will intercept their target even if they’re jamming. 

Edited April 20, 2024 by DCS FIGHTER PILOT

[Hobel]

the thing is simple at the moment, the thresholdof the Aim120 is 30kts.

if the target has a slow ground speed, the threshold of the Aim120 remains fixed at 30kts.

However, there is a point that as soon as the target exceeds a certain ground speed, flies into the notch and then comes out of the notch 30kts, it seems as if the threshold has shifted by 3-4 times.

Edited June 30, 2024 by Hobel

[Pavlin_33]

I am surprised that notching 120 is such a big deal. Why is that so? Do we have any information that the notch values are wrong, or is it just people displeased that their AMRAAM missed?

What about chaff? It has no influence on the locking radar and I really don't know if it has any significant effect on the 120 - it's useless. Also what about ECM? Does 120 have a burn-through value when not in HOJ, or does it magically see the target at pitpull regardless of jamming?

 

Edited July 1, 2024 by Pavlin_33

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

5 hours ago, Pavlin_33 said:

I am surprised that notching 120 is such a big deal. Why is that so? Do we have any information that the notch values are wrong, or is it just people displeased that their AMRAAM missed?

What about chaff? It has no influence on the locking radar and I really don't know if it has any significant effect on the 120 - it's useless. Also what about ECM? Does 120 have a burn-through value when not in HOJ, or does it magically see the target at pitpull regardless of jamming?

 

 

If it were to happen once every so often it really is not a big deal. The problem is, anyone (given a little bit of practice) can notch well over half (probably in the 8/10-9/10 range) of all missiles fired at them either individually or at at once. If notching was this effective against even the most modern missiles why is stealth, jamming, and heck, even chaff a thing? Why even bother to use radar for guidance? 

Edited July 1, 2024 by DCS FIGHTER PILOT

[Pavlin_33]

12 hours ago, DCS FIGHTER PILOT said:

If it were to happen once every so often it really is not a big deal. The problem is, anyone (given a little bit of practice) can notch well over half (probably in the 8/10-9/10 range) of all missiles fired at them either individually or at at once. If notching was this effective against even the most modern missiles why is stealth, jamming, and heck, even chaff a thing? Why even bother to use radar for guidance? 

 

I would guess that all those things increase the likelihood of the missile not hitting.

I would also assume that notching a fox3 in RL would be something very hard to do, first of all 'cause your life is at stake and I highly doubt real RWRs are that accurate.

What I am getting at here is that DCS is pretty gammey in this regard, and we have learned how to exploit this over time.

Also IRL the primary goal is not to kill the enemy, but deny them the airspace. In DCS we are obssesed with splashing the opponent.

 

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

10 hours ago, Pavlin_33 said:

I highly doubt real RWRs are that accurate.

 

They are not and this is a major part of the problem. 
 

 

[Pavlin_33]

19 hours ago, DCS FIGHTER PILOT said:

They are not and this is a major part of the problem.

I don't know, me personally I just look at the heading tape when notching - SPO is not the best for these things.

[AeriaGloria]

On 7/3/2024 at 10:36 AM, Pavlin_33 said:

I don't know, me personally I just look at the heading tape when notching - SPO is not the best for these things.

How do you know the threat is exactly 90 degrees if not by RWR? Seeing missile with MK 1 eye ball?