AIM-120 Still Too Easy to Notch?

[okopanja]

You do not need to be perfect radial speed would be: Vr = V * cos(theta), where theta is the angle between 2 headings. Therefore it does not have to be perfect, especially if you lower your speed.

[Pavlin_33]

3 minutes ago, AeriaGloria said:

How do you know the threat is exactly 90 degrees if not by RWR? Seeing missile with MK 1 eye ball? 

I don't know. I can roughly guess by RWR, but usually I rely on flying 90 deg heading from the threat. Depending on the situation, data-link can be of help also.

In my DCS, if I see a missile visually this just means that an impact is happening in the next 1 second or so.

[Pavlin_33]

1 minute ago, okopanja said:

You do not need to be perfect radial speed would be: Vr = V * cos(theta), where theta is the angle between 2 headings. Therefore it does not have to be perfect, especially if you lower your speed.

The faster your velocity, the closer you need to be to that perfect angle and vice versa. It's all about keeping that relative velocity to the transmitter, below its notch filter value. As long as you are there different combinations of speeds and angles will work.

[AeriaGloria]

10 minutes ago, okopanja said:

You do not need to be perfect radial speed would be: Vr = V * cos(theta), where theta is the angle between 2 headings. Therefore it does not have to be perfect, especially if you lower your speed.

For 36 kmh notch, at 1100 kmh (high subsonic), using this formula I find that you need around +/-1.75 degree of 90 degrees to stay within +/- 36 kmh notch . Obviously you also need the missile to not have enough up look to not need a notch.

[okopanja]

1 minute ago, AeriaGloria said:

For 36 kmh notch, at 1100 kmh (high subsonic), using this formula I find that you need around +/-1.75 degree of 90 degrees to stay within +/- 36 kmh notch . Obviously you also need the missile to not have enough up look to not need a notch.

clearly lower speed is beneficial, since it leads you to a wider angle that can fit the notch.

also note that this is just assumption that attack goes nose on. what should be asctually taken as angle at which his radar beam crosses the target heading.

[AeriaGloria]

Just now, okopanja said:

clearly lower speed is beneficial, since it leads you to a wider angle that can fit the notch.

Yes of course, just wanted to see what your formula said for an average speed you want to maintain in a BVR fight. 

[okopanja]

Other factors that should be accounted:

- variable RCS

- S/N (especially in low level flight). Would be interesting if any of the modules models this depending on the actual terrain (hills, mountains, buildings, tree etc).

- all that traffic that happens on the ground that generates reflections with doppler shift. E.g. cars, trucks, buses. Naturally you do not have that effect in desert. Pretty sure DCS does not model this.

with western RWR, expecially if you export it it is easier to achieve this. The larger your make RWR the easier will be for human to spot the angle difference to 90 degrees.

Flankers/Fulcrums can bring it close, but they are mostly guessing.

Edited July 6, 2024 by okopanja

[GGTharos]

1 hour ago, AeriaGloria said:

How do you know the threat is exactly 90 degrees if not by RWR? Seeing missile with MK 1 eye ball? 

Yes, you should be doing just about everything by sight.   It doesn't have to be the missile specifically although seeing the smoke trail will help.  

Edited July 6, 2024 by GGTharos

[AeriaGloria]

Okay, so I need to see a 178mm wide object traveling at Mach 1-4, through my scratched up canopy, and then be able to spot how far from 90 degree angle off it is with only external references. Then fly 1-4 degrees from that 90 degree zone depending on my speed, and maintain that until it passes so it doesn’t retain lock 

[Ironhand]

2 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

Okay, so I need to see a 178mm wide object traveling at Mach 1-4, through my scratched up canopy, and then be able to spot how far from 90 degree angle off it is with only external references. Then fly 1-4 degrees from that 90 degree zone depending on my speed, and maintain that until it passes so it doesn’t retain lock 

 Piece of cake. Can do it every time, even with my eyes closed.

[Hobel]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb Pavlin_33:

The faster your velocity, the closer you need to be to that perfect angle a

I would slightly disagree due to the behaviour of the aim120 in dcs.   If you notch and you are relatively fast and hit the missle threshold of 30kts once, then this increases by 2-4+++ times, so you have more room to notch even though you are fast + the advantage that you are not a lame duck.

Here are 3 examples: the faster the target, the later the aim120 tracks the target.  

 

 

 

 

Tacview-20240702-021923-DCS-notch 50kts .trk.zip.acmi 80kts.acmi Tacview-20240702-021736-DCS-notch 30kts .trk.zip.acmi

Edited July 6, 2024 by Hobel

[intruder11]

 

 

Seems too easy to me.

[Hobel]

vor 1 Minute schrieb intruder11:

 

 

Seems too easy to me.

Nice.

 

Upload Tacview?

[intruder11]

Tacview-20240705-195656-DCS-Whiskey Corridor v1alpha3.zip.acmi

Messing around with a co-op mission I'm making haha

[Hobel]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb intruder11:

Tacview-20240705-195656-DCS-Whiskey Corridor v1alpha3.zip.acmi 3.7 MB · 2 Downloads

Messing around with a co-op mission I'm making haha

and that's what I meant you hit the notch of 30kts and often come out but the missle can't see you even though it's over 100 vr

do you have the track from the mission?

 

Edited July 7, 2024 by Hobel

[Mad_Shell]

@NineLine I remember ED saying that if a target hits the notch, the Aim 120 will extrapolate it's position based on the target last location and speed vector, and reacquire the target if it goes out of the notch. In the Hobel's message juste above we see that it's not the case. Are you guys aware of this?

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

2 hours ago, Mad_Shell said:

@NineLine I remember ED saying that if a target hits the notch, the Aim 120 will extrapolate it's position based on the target last location and speed vector, and reacquire the target if it goes out of the notch. In the Hobel's message juste above we see that it's not the case. Are you guys aware of this?

This is just pure speculation and I don’t expect ED to model anything like this, but I have heard others say that even if a target is able to enter the notch and stay there, then the AIM-120 could narrow the velocity gate to try and re-acquire the target. 

Edited July 7, 2024 by DCS FIGHTER PILOT

[ruxtmp]

At this point I dont see this being addressed. No comments from ED not even the standard show us data to support your claim. I suspect missiles are part of the core game, which is free, therefore there is no incentive to evaluate and improve them. Also missile unreliability at BVR ranges promotes the merge and dogfighting which I believe was mentioned as the intent of the game

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

1 hour ago, ruxtmp said:

Also missile unreliability at BVR ranges promotes the merge and dogfighting which I believe was mentioned as the intent of the game

That’s why we have dogfight servers. They’re quite popular too. 

[ruxtmp]

1 hour ago, DCS FIGHTER PILOT said:

That’s why we have dogfight servers. They’re quite popular too. 

I know that but was pointing out that if ED wants to promote the merge happening then they probably feel their notch functionality is appropriate. I'd prefer missiles guide more realistically but don't see it changing as it's been poor for so long.

[inZane]

There are a couple good videos about this action:

 

 

and 

You cannot go wrong with either video, but the 2nd builds on the first.

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

On 7/7/2024 at 2:59 PM, inZane said:

There are a couple good videos about this action:

 

 

and 

You cannot go wrong with either video, but the 2nd builds on the first.

Superb. Its stuff like this that really makes you wonder if DCS should be called DCG. 

Edited July 8, 2024 by DCS FIGHTER PILOT

[skywalker22]

How is with the notch with AESA radar regarding doppler notch thing?

--

And btw, notching is more like a gamble then 100% success. Its 50:50. I would put it like that, if you really have no where to go, you can try it, but don't count on it, specially against some tough oponents, who know what they are doing. Those are my (more or less bad) experiences.

To see what I'm talkin about, I just did a simple example with 2x AI, check the tacview (I should be dead with 1st missile, vulnerability on off). And got pretty decent notch, right? I guess not good enough. Also 2nd missile was more like a luck that missed me.

Tacview-20240708-220632-DCS.zip.acmi

Edited July 8, 2024 by skywalker22