POLL: Would you rather see A-10 or AH-64a as next module?

[KrUEgER888]

Ok , sorry if I appear rude, but those are facts. If its like this, you could start a poll about almost anything.

 

What people want or not, choice has been already made.

 

Why not make a poll about the third module?

 

--I dont drive fast, just fly low--

 

KrUEgER out

Edited March 30, 2009 by KrUEgER888

[EtherealN]

That would probably be interesting too, but the options are not as clearly defined for that one. AFAIK the only ones we know for certain will absolutely happen are the A10C and AH64A, and it was around those two that the previous discussion was revolving.

 

And yes, you could start a poll about almost anything just like you could start a thread about almost anything. Whether people will be interested in the poll or thread stands on it's own merit tho. :P

 

For fourth module I want the Su-25T though. :D

[Sharkster64]

Ok , sorry if I appear rude, but those are facts. If its like this, you could start a poll about almost anything.

 

What people want or not, choice has been already made.

 

Why not make a poll about the third module?

 

--I dont drive fast, just fly low--

 

KrUEgER out

Hey Kreuger, if you don't like this pole, that is fine. You certainly don't have to voice your opinion. If you would rather see a different pole, you are more than welcome to create your own pole. This pole however is an off shoot of another thread (Ability to fly other aircraft) that gained alot of popularity with this subject. I just wanted to know what the percentage of rotorheads vs jetheads there are on these forums because the way these threads are shaping up, ED needs to know that there ARE chopper fans out there as well. We have to show our support for that as well, or all we are going to see in the future are jet sims, because no one had the energy to post a simple poll. It's up to you whether or not you would like to take part in this pole.

[Chibawang]

Well, I suppose that I don't have to tell anyone I voted for the A-10C. :thumbup:

 

Sharkster, I'm pretty sure ED knows there are plenty of rotorheads out there and that they've long been yearning for something new. Otherwise, why would they have kicked off the series with the KA-50? They've also made a whole host of players interested in helicopters who weren't before BS, including myself. But you also have to understand that there hasn't been a detailed study sim of a military fixed wing aircraft since Falcon! Comparing anything from DCS to LOMAC or any other survey sim is simply pointless. So, we've been waiting a long time too. :music_whistling: I also understand that people want some good 'ole classic head-to-head in heli form, but personally I think that is one of the more uninteresting forms of multiplayer possible with multiple aircraft in DCS. Not only that, but wouldn't that make for a pretty lopsided engagement with the AH-64's superior A/A capabilities? I also agree that ground forces need alot more responsiveness for helicopters as well as jets, but especially for helicopters. I'm more interested in the cooperative aspect of multiplayer, at least until we have alot more aircraft on both sides of the pond. For instance, how amazing would it be to have an OH-58D Kiowa scout lasing targets for Apaches behind terrain cover? This is probably very unlikely, but it gives you an idea of what I'm talking about. Still, everyone's entitled to their opinion and I don't mean for any hostility to spill over from the other thread.

 

edit: I think the poll calculations are a bit off...

 

AH-64A Apache - 42.36%

A-10C Warthog - 60.42%

 

for a total of.. 102.78% ?!

Edited March 30, 2009 by Chibawang

[Sharkster64]

Well, I suppose that I don't have to tell anyone I voted for the A-10C. :thumbup:

 

Sharkster, I'm pretty sure ED knows there are plenty of rotorheads out there and that they've long been yearning for something new. Otherwise, why would they have kicked off the series with the KA-50? They've also made a whole host of players interested in helicopters who weren't before BS, including myself. But you also have to understand that there hasn't been a detailed study sim of a military fixed wing aircraft since Falcon! Comparing anything from DCS to LOMAC or any other survey sim is simply pointless. So, we've been waiting a long time too. :music_whistling: I also understand that people want some good 'ole classic head-to-head in heli form, but personally I think that is one of the more uninteresting forms of multiplayer possible with multiple aircraft in DCS. Not only that, but wouldn't that make for a pretty lopsided engagement with the AH-64's superior A/A capabilities? I also agree that ground forces need alot more responsiveness for helicopters as well as jets, but especially for helicopters. I'm more interested in the cooperative aspect of multiplayer, at least until we have alot more aircraft on both sides of the pond. For instance, how amazing would it be to have an OH-58D Kiowa scout lasing targets for Apaches behind terrain cover? This is probably very unlikely, but it gives you an idea of what I'm talking about. Still, everyone's entitled to their opinion and I don't mean for any hostility to spill over from the other thread.

 

edit: I think the poll calculations are a bit off...

 

AH-64A Apache - 42.36%

A-10C Warthog - 60.42%

 

for a total of.. 102.78% ?!

I undertand what you are saying, but if history serves me correct, Longbow 2 was the last study sim for a chopper, and that was out wayyyy before falcon by years. So you can understand why alot of us really want the apache. As for ED knowing about the amount of rotorheads out there, I'm not quite so sure about that. The amount of threads popping up lately that have to do with jets over choppers have started to make me wonder whether ED remembers us. After all the A-10 is slated next and now apparently the AH-64a is no longer a for sure thing. So yeah I am a little worried about the direction of this sim. That is why I started this poll. :cry:

[EvilBivol-1]

Unfortunately, nothing is ever a sure thing.

Edited March 30, 2009 by EvilBivol-1

[EtherealN]

Well sharkster, the one thing that is really dominant in ED decision making for this is information. The standard of information they demand to go forth with an aircraft is massively high, so I suspect the main governing thing really is which aircraft they can do without diluting their own established standards. One of the reasons (I would suspect) that the A-10 got made before the others is that they got the military contracts, so it was easier.

 

Chibawang, the Ka-50 was something they had started on way before that (originally as a LockOn expansion) so at that time when the Ka50 was selected and researched it wasn't something that they were going to "start off" a series with. I don't know it as a fact, but I suspect that what basically happened was that they got so good information from Kamov and the pilots and technicians that they realized the level of fidelity they could do - and then found that it would be impossible to do that within the framework of LockOn. (Or that realizing that standard would cost so much in development that it would definitely end up having to be a full-price product.)

[Chibawang]

Sharkster: To be fair, the last study sim of a combat helicopter was, of course, DCS: Black Shark. I think alot of this boils down to the fact that alot of people simply really, really love the Apache and are very anxious for a successor to the Longbow series. Not that there's anything wrong with that, I feel similarly about the A-10, except that it's never been done properly. But there's no reason to suspect that jets get more favoritism from the developers. It's not that it is no longer certain that the Apache is after the A-10, it was never certain. It is, however extremely likely given the suggestions and screenshots from the developers. As has been said repeatedly, it boils down to available information. If they can get full access to information for a variety of helicopters, I'm sure they'll do their best to please both sides of the fence (jet/heli fans). Just be patient and enjoy what you have as you get it, and I think you'll be pleasantly suprised with whatever module you play. I was never even slightly interested in helicopter combat before BS. Now I really enjoy it and am glad someone did it justice in a modern graphics engine. However, I never get quite the same feeling with helicopters as I do in a fixed wing. That I think has to do with the fact that the helicopter is a physically unstable design; it just doesn't give me the same graceful feeling of soaring through the skies while I reign death down from above. It really all comes down to personal preference, and I'm sure everyone will find their niche eventually.

 

EtherealN: Yes, that's true. But still I think they recognized that rotor fans had been left in the dark and wanted to do something about it.

[zokier]

yea contrary to popular beliefs, the Ah-64 is not guarantee to come after the A-10C module. It would depend on whatever information and resources are available at the moment in order to pull off these modules. But the A-10C is the next one, after that it is ambiguous at the moment.

 

So what alternatives is ED currently considering as 3. module, if Apache is not done? Su-25T?

[VMFA117_Poko]

Voted for A-10C and basta.

[Chizzy101]

I'd love to see an A-10 at a similar level of detail as to what's been done with the Ka-50. I think it would be a very different experience than any other fixed wing sim and would be miles in front of the competition.

 

My biggest concern with implementing the Apache (or any two seater for that matter) is how to handle the AI for the second seat. Yes, it would be great to fly it in multiplayer with two human crew, but what about single player/offline? At the level of detail that ED seem to be aiming for with DCS, I just can't see how anyone could fly and fight in an Apache in single player mode. I think AI for the second seat is a pretty big obstacle for any two seat aircraft in DCS...

[Grimes]

 

and then found that it would be impossible to do that within the framework of LockOn. (Or that realizing that standard would cost so much in development that it would definitely end up having to be a full-price product.)

 

Reckon there is more to the story than that... as there always is.

 

I think all the posts discussing new a/c are just that.... People want more variety, simple as that.

[Feuerfalke]

I would personally prefer an Apache.

 

But thinking about the obstacles met in BS, my vote goes for the A10.

 

 

When sophisticated ground AI, collideable vegetation, an AI able to handle the second seat, etc. have been integrated into DCS, I would LOVE an Apache, but not with the current engine TBH.

[GGM]

My vote for Apache also, despite that I belive ED will release A-10 first.

[Jigsaw]

No and no.

 

Bummer. :cry:

[Boberro]

I would like to see Apache first - imo most logic move than plane and helicopter like it is supposed to be now.

 

But anyway it is good to have this than nothing of course!

[Raz_Specter]

I would also like to see the apache AH-64 since there has already been an A-10 in LOMAC.

 

The co-op play in the same heli really interests me.

 

Thanks Mothandta

[EtherealN]

Reckon there is more to the story than that... as there always is.

 

Oh definitely, and my take on it is really nothing more than barely educated guesses. :P

 

I do find it interesting to try to put myself into the process and try to see the issues, and I find that it usually takes the edge off of most annoyances I end up having with a product or developer. Having some background in the industry helps there ofc (used to freelance as a reviewer).

 

In the end, I really don't envy the guys that have to sit there and try to join customer expectations with what is economically feasible with limited risks. And with where the market is for simulation products, the level of detail that ED is offering us with the DCS series is such that I'll happily accept anything they feel I should fly. Hell, like someone mentioned, a high-fidelity UH-1 or Mi-8 would have me positively extatic too. :P

[Rockeyes]

Hi All.

 

My vote would also be for an Apache AH and like mithandra love idea of flying co-op with in the heli.

 

How about the KA52?

Edited March 30, 2009 by Rockeyes

[Rockeyes]

I know the A10 has been lined up for the next add-on but I am concerned about the game play.

An A10 against the KA50 in either head to head in air-to-air or air to ground rolls are not exactly balanced. I can just see me going in to a hover mode trying to pick my target and an A10 comes at me doing 700km/h releasing its Aim-9’s and it Avenger Cannon:helpsmilie:.

Edited March 30, 2009 by Rockeyes

[159th_Viper]

An A10 against the KA50 in either head to head in air-to-air or air to ground rolls are not exactly balanced. I can just see me going in to a hover mode trying to pick my target and an A10 comes at me doing 700km/h releasing its Aim-9’s and it Avenger Cannon:helpsmilie:.

 

'Tis true - If he sees you first, you're dead!

 

HOWEVER

 

If you see him first, well........even that Titanium bathtum he's sitting in will be of no consequence - either way he's in for a roasting :D

 

 

As for balance - and realism notwithstanding - one would sincerely hope that the Hog will be flyable on at least two coalitions, said coalitions capable of being on opposing sides. Insodoing the gameplay issue/balance argument is a non-starter.

 

Anybody from the ED team care to comment on the above? Would be good to have clarity as to whether we will have an A-10 vs A-10 scenario thrown into the mix. Cannot see it happening any other way tbh - IMHO of course!

[EtherealN]

How about the KA52?

 

It's almost as classified as the F-22. :P

So not a snowball's chance in hell, sadly. :(

 

Also:

 

I know the A10 has been lined up for the next add-on but I am concerned about the game play.

An A10 against the KA50 in either head to head in air-to-air or air to ground rolls are not exactly balanced. I can just see me going in to a hover mode trying to pick my target and an A10 comes at me doing 700km/h releasing its Aim-9’s and it Avenger Cannon:helpsmilie:.

 

This is not a shooter.

 

Whenever a scenario on a server is just a deathmatch, I won't be playing on that server even if it's the exact same aircraft. When I want stuff like that I fire up CoD on the Xbox.

A properly made scenario that involves both Ka-50 and the A10, on opposite sides, would involve both having some variation of ground attack missions. I suspect that players that decide to only use their A-10's to hunt aircraft would be a serious harm to their own side - since that's effort they are not spending on achieving actual mission objectives.

Edited March 30, 2009 by EtherealN

[Chibawang]

Exactly, well said EtherealN.

[EtherealN]

Another point to Rockeyes:

 

You say the A-10 and Ka-50 are "not exactly balanced" even in air to ground roles. I am curious to know what you base this on. I would say that as a combat air support platform the Ka-50 is massively superior to the A-10 in many cases, simply because it is a helicopter. In an A-10 you cannot hover in a sheltered position and methodically work on a group of targets. You will at best be an area-effect weapon against infantry. Simply because you have to maintain an airspeed who'se lower envelope is at the top of the Ka-50's.

 

On the other hand you do have a larger payload and your speed gives you a longer action radius and you have the ability to carry cluster bombs etcetera. But the way you operate is extremely different and that leads to scenarios where I would take a single Ka-50 over five A-10's. And, of course, the relative inability of the A-10 for terrain masking means that the A-10 is a vastly greater risk to both SAMs and fighter interception.

 

There is no "imbalance" because the two types of aircraft execute different roles. It just so happens that in a "dogfight" one of them has vastly better odds - but the commander that actively puts A-10's on an anti-air role (even against helos) deserves to be court-martialed and shot for stupidity.

 

(Also, native english speakers, what is the proper spelling of "whoo's" or "who'se" etcetera? I never manage to get that one right...)

[McVittees]

Seeing as what ED will produce in future depends on what contracts they get from the military, I think the question that needs to be asked is what military contracts are ED working on at the moment and does ED have any contracts lined up? Presumably the A-10C contract for USANG is (or nearly is) completed if ED are able to divert resources to creating an A-10 DCS module.

 

Also, the implication of this policy is that if ED does not get a contract to create a training tool for an operator of the AH-64, then we will never be seeing an Apache DCS module!:cry:

 

Who knows, the next DCS module could be "DCS:Mi-8". Not quite what some people are expecting...

Edited March 30, 2009 by McVittees
Clarity and then more clarity