Expectation on Air to Air missiles of the MiG-29A?

[pepin1234]

First red 4th gen fighter is welcome! But what about the missiles?

R-27R is just useless over sea level below 100m on the current stage. 

Today two western fighters launched on my face just keeping flight level under 100m. They already know what we got and so tactics goes in DCS, based in what ED gave us.

hopefully they give some love to the current missiles before module be launched. 

Edited January 13, 2024 by pepin1234

[Gierasimov]

1 hour ago, pepin1234 said:

First red 4th gen fighter is welcome! But what about the missiles?

R-27R is just useless over sea level below 100m on the current stage. 

Today two western fighters launched on my face just keeping flight level under 100m. They already know what we got and so tactics goes in DCS, based in what ED gave us.

hopefully they give some love to the current missiles before module be launched. 

 

Air-To-Air Missile Development. We plan to migrate the R-27 (AA-10) family and R-73  (AA-11) missiles to a new component structure and flight dynamics. This will be coupled with a new proximity fuse model that accounts for Doppler closing speed, modified seekers, and a more realistic interaction model between the missile and the supporting radar. This will be done within the larger MiG-29 project framework. Other missile types will also be developed in the same way.

[Falconeer]

7 hours ago, pepin1234 said:

R-27R is just useless over sea level below 100m 

Well, shooting from there puts you already in a very big disadvantage. The problem is not the missile

[pepin1234]

8 minutes ago, Falconeer said:

Well, shooting from there puts you already in a very big disadvantage. The problem is not the missile

Aim-120 doesn’t have that issue at all. Things should be fixed on that regard. 

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, pepin1234 said:

Aim-120 doesn’t have that issue at all. Things should be fixed on that regard. 

The missile matches known charts extremely well. Better than R-27ER. The AMRAAM being a very thin missile just has much better aerodynamics at low altitude in thick air, while R-27 is optimized for higher altitudes

At 1 km, flying subsonic and firing on subsonic target, it should go 15 km front aspect, about 10 from the side, and 5 from rear aspect 

[pepin1234]

12 minutes ago, AeriaGloria said:

The missile matches known charts extremely well. Better than R-27ER. The AMRAAM being a very thin missile just has much better aerodynamics at low altitude in thick air, while R-27 is optimized for higher altitudes

At 1 km, flying subsonic and firing on subsonic target, it should go 15 km front aspect, about 10 from the side, and 5 from rear aspect 

Correct. Just the Aim-120 performance amazingly well in very high altitude such don’t make sense for kinematics. So things should be corrected somehow 

[Falconeer]

Nothing needs to be corrected, you simply cannot shoot missiles from down low and expect them to behave the same as if they are fired from 30k altitude. It doesnt't work that way 

[Wizard_03]

R-27 is never going to be competitive with AMRAAM period. So to the forum title question, I would expect to be shot down in a BVR situation facing anyone with a ARH missile, and super shot down if that missile is a 120C. R-27 should be more then competitive against early Aim-7s and the ER versions (if we get them for game play purposes, as the MiG-29A 9.12 historically didn't carry them) should be very competitive against late sparrows. R-73 should be about the same as a 9X with a little less resistance against flares.

[okopanja]

4 minutes ago, Wizard_03 said:

R-27 is never going to be competitive with AMRAAM period. So to the forum title question, I would expect to be shot down in a BVR situation facing anyone with a ARH missile, and super shot down if that missile is a 120C. R-27 should be more then competitive against early Aim-7s and the ER versions (if we get them for game play purposes, as the MiG-29A 9.12 historically didn't carry them) should be very competitive against late sparrows. R-73 should be about the same as a 9X with a little less resistance against flares.

Dude, you already missed the piece of russian manual for 9.12 (that got removed) stating both ER and EP.

[pepin1234]

On 1/14/2024 at 11:19 AM, Wizard_03 said:

R-27 is never going to be competitive with AMRAAM period. So to the forum title question, I would expect to be shot down in a BVR situation facing anyone with a ARH missile, and super shot down if that missile is a 120C. R-27 should be more then competitive against early Aim-7s and the ER versions (if we get them for game play purposes, as the MiG-29A 9.12 historically didn't carry them) should be very competitive against late sparrows. R-73 should be about the same as a 9X with a little less resistance against flares.

it's not about game play or balance. The ER missiles must be there because is part of the Payload weapon, ET and EP as well. I understand you don't want that news, but if things go different, then as always, we are on the wrong direction ones again.

Edited January 16, 2024 by pepin1234

[Ramius007]

I dont even think about taking Mig-29 against Amraam capable anything, I just hope that on top of FF Mig we see changes to IR moddeling, diffrent temperature effects hopefully clouds affecting things, and Mig radar will be in realistic charts with it's all abilities and disabilities, but Mig will not be flying in vacumm, need adversary planes with real capabilities from era old Fulcrum has it's prime, DCS shifting towards cold war is a good thing overall

[pepin1234]

Today I shoot down a F-16 from 10000m high, 25km away using R-27R. He was low and I was radar off. I turn Radar ON just over him. No chance to scape.

R-27R still can do a good job using tactics 

[AeriaGloria]

11 hours ago, Ramius007 said:

I dont even think about taking Mig-29 against Amraam capable anything, I just hope that on top of FF Mig we see changes to IR moddeling, diffrent temperature effects hopefully clouds affecting things, and Mig radar will be in realistic charts with it's all abilities and disabilities, but Mig will not be flying in vacumm, need adversary planes with real capabilities from era old Fulcrum has it's prime, DCS shifting towards cold war is a good thing overall

MiG-29A/G in DCS seems to have very accurate radar ranges. Hopefully the actual scan patterns, modes, false contacts are all added for the module however, including lock delays and errors in target coordinates. 

S model should have 14-15% range boost, but not in DCS. 
 

IRST should detect MiG-21 at maximum power from 15 km at a rear aspect at 5,000m.  Might be interesting to see how it compares in DCS currently 

Edited January 17, 2024 by AeriaGloria

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

2 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

Hopefully the actual scan patterns, modes, false contacts are all added for the module however, including lock delays and errors in target coordinates. 

Hopefully one day the AI takes that into account as well, instead of the current "I know where you are at all times and I can lock you up instantly even behind me"  

[pepin1234]

5 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

IRST should detect MiG-21 at maximum power from 15 km at a rear aspect at 5,00, might be interesting to see how it compares in DCS currently 

That’s wrong. Are you part of the development team? I’m scare to get an An-2 biplane avionics if ED follow all false information posted here.

Edited January 17, 2024 by pepin1234

[AeriaGloria]

48 minutes ago, pepin1234 said:

That’s wrong. Are you part of the development team? I’m scare to get an An-2 biplane avionics if ED follow all false information posted here.

 

I meant 15 km detection range 3/4 rear aspect MiG-21 at maximum power both planes at 5,000m altitude, and lock range of 12 km. I made a type an fixed it. 
 

Is that what you are referring to? I took these numbers straight from the manual. Biggest range for IRST I saw is 12-18 km rear aspect angle 0/4-1/4 for a “fighter” in maximum operation mode. Which averages to 15 km. 
 

While targeting F-4/5/14/15/16/18 with larger signatures we’ll get better range. But this is top end of reported ranges with no background. In same situation MiG-23MLA should have average 22 km detection, and Su-27 OLS only gives generic 50 km for rear aspect fighter and 12-15 km front aspect. 
 

MiG-29 IRST design definitely prioritizes use in dogfights and WVR use, and relies on HMS and R-73 to provide angles more then 30 degrees. MiG-23/MiG-25PD/Su-27 definitely put larger priority on range 

[ruxtmp]

On 1/13/2024 at 2:59 PM, pepin1234 said:

Aim-120 doesn’t have that issue at all. Things should be fixed on that regard. 

The Aim-120 has numerous issues. All it takes to defeat is a barrel roll or split S, Chaff optional but ensures a miss. Also at further ranges just an easy 90 degree turn to put the missile in the notch defeats it too. 

[twistking]

1 hour ago, ruxtmp said:

[...] All it takes to defeat is a barrel roll or split S, [...]

Really?

[pepin1234]

IRST is not only for dogfighting… if you are a twin engine you will generate more heat. Also for F-16 single is a pretty big powerful engine to be compared with the tiny MiG-21, so F-16 is not that stealth on that regard. So you will be detected from a long distance. As you maneuver side to the IRST sensor you will show the hot side of your engine and R-27T/ET should effectively hit you even when you are maneuvering low on afterburner. 
 

another misconception is people tell the R-27T should be launched first to avoid the previous rocket burst. That’s not 100% correct.

RU fighter can launch the T variant as second launch, just need to make dive banking maneuver before second T be on the way. 

Edited January 17, 2024 by pepin1234

[okopanja]

6 hours ago, ruxtmp said:

The Aim-120 has numerous issues. All it takes to defeat is a barrel roll or split S, Chaff optional but ensures a miss. Also at further ranges just an easy 90 degree turn to put the missile in the notch defeats it too. 

Please stay on topic.

8 hours ago, pepin1234 said:

That’s wrong. Are you part of the development team? I’m scare to get an An-2 biplane avionics if ED follow all false information posted here.

 

We can discuss this all day long, but ED will do at the end accrding to manuals and their own decissions.

Also note that size of EOS does matter and that one on the flanker is roughly size of the helmet.

[Ramius007]

IRST have very narrow aplication in DCS, but it's also opinion of real pilots who were flying Migs, In DCS it's basically nice tool to attack from the deck outside EWR and awacs coverage, so you dont send warning to attacked plane, and it's mostly MP thing, for SP it's has some use in night fight, but if you remove IRST from Mig, you dont lose much capability.

Edited January 17, 2024 by Ramius007

[ruxtmp]

On 1/16/2024 at 9:47 PM, twistking said:

Really?

Yes at least 90% of the time especially in MP.

[AeriaGloria]

All you need to defeat any R-27 is fly at more then a 70-80 degree angle for more then 3 seconds. Doing a loop, barrel roll, or split S often fits inside those parameters 

[pepin1234]

1 hour ago, AeriaGloria said:

All you need to defeat any R-27 is fly at more then a 70-80 degree angle for more then 3 seconds. Doing a loop, barrel roll, or split S often fits inside those parameters 

You give tips to defeat the Mig-29A... you just forget mention the R-27 missile doesn't came back to guidance after the enemy leave the notch maneuver, such its wrong simulation behavior, Notch could take about one sec or two most of the time. The Russian missile become a miss after a single short notch WRONG!!  AIM-7 do reacquire guidance very well so that issue is for ED. Have been so for quite long, make it an easy defeat to any Russian missiles.

[okopanja]

32 minutes ago, pepin1234 said:

You give tips to defeat the Mig-29A... you just forget mention the R-27 missile doesn't came back to guidance after the enemy leave the notch maneuver, such its wrong simulation behavior, Notch could take about one sec or two most of the time. The Russian missile become a miss after a single short notch WRONG!!  AIM-7 do reacquire guidance very well so that issue is for ED. Have been so for quite long, make it an easy defeat to any Russian missiles.

1. Everyone know that breaking a lock on flanker/fulcrum ib DCS is easy.

2. Real Su-27SK manual states with single sentence that relock is not possible.

3. Even when relock was possible it had limitted practical use

4. RWRs in western jets as implenented now are too precise in terms of azimuth. This is what makes it so easy to dump R-27ER