Some questions and perhaps frustrations with this module

[Typhonus2]

1. Why does this helicopter wobble so much in flight? I have the Hind, the MI-8, and the KA-50. All of them are relatively stable on their X-axis during normal flight. The Apache seems to constantly wobble. I've tried desaturating various axes on my high-end controllers, adding curves, etc. Nothing really does much to improve it without making the controls so insensitive to inhibit flight. It's like a Weeble.

2. The automatic flight control features seem far inferior to those in the Hind or the KA-50. Both have autopilots that can reasonably hold a course, assuming they are given sufficient authority from trim, etc. Likewise altitude. This doesn't hold to any course, but only attitude, speed, or altitude. And those seem to constantly slide away from the desired numbers with the slightest perturbation, no matter how carefully I trim.

3. It's always seemingly crabbing in flight, with its flight path indicator slid off to one side or the other. When the aircraft is in aerodynamic trim, it's often out of nose-to-tail trim, and vice versa. These others seem to fly much more "cleanly", so to speak. Since this is true of the Hind as well as the KA-50, it's not just the variation between tail rotors and coaxial systems.

4. It just feels much less stable and grounded than these other helicopters, so to speak. It is really maneuverable, which is nice. But flying it feels like a real chore in comparison. That seems odd for a machine that is quite a bit more technically advanced than either of the others.

I've watched a bunch of YouTube videos in this regard, and haven't found them overly enlightening. Cosmo basically says to hover less and to not worry so much worry about the crabbing and nose-to-tail trim, without really being clear about why it should be that way.

Can anyone offer some advice?

[NIGHTHAWK1]

First - remember it is a WIP, give it 10 years and then maybe.   The FM (flight model) is terrible in my opinion.   I too have flown other helos in various sims and this is the worst.

[Floyd1212]

It has been noted (by those who would know) that the crabbing is a bit exaggerated with the current flight model.  If memory serves, at maybe 2.5x what it should be.

14 hours ago, Typhonus2 said:

When the aircraft is in aerodynamic trim, it's often out of nose-to-tail trim, and vice versa.

This is the way it should work.  If you are in aero trim (ball centered) you will be crabbing as you fly.  If you are in nose-to-tail trim (with the flight path indicator at your 12 o'clock) you won't be crabbing, but you will need some left roll to maintain your heading.

[RaisedByWolves]

Should be all worked out in 2 weeks.

[FalcoGer]

On 1/20/2024 at 2:19 AM, Typhonus2 said:

Why does this helicopter wobble so much in flight?

SCAS goes crazy if you do large stick movements. Do small, smooth corrections and trim. Alternatively hold down trim while doing those corrections.

On 1/20/2024 at 2:19 AM, Typhonus2 said:

It's always seemingly crabbing in flight, with its flight path indicator slid off to one side or the other

That's just the way it is. It seems a little excessive at times, but I have no real world experience, so I can't say.

On 1/20/2024 at 2:19 AM, Typhonus2 said:

This doesn't hold to any course, but only attitude, speed, or altitude. And those seem to constantly slide away from the desired numbers with the slightest perturbation, no matter how carefully I trim.

They said SCAS is still WIP. I also found that altitude hold seems to slip away after a few minutes and it holds better if you just leave it off. If you keep the FPM stable and aren't slipping, you can reasonably keep flying the same direction with attitude hold. Personally I don't mind too much giving a millimeter of stick input every 30 seconds and re-trimming without attitude hold, i really only use it for hovering.

I can't speak about the hind, but the KA50 was designed for a single pilot, including a route autopilot. If you have a decently competent slave CPG (aka not george), then all you really need to worry about is flying and planning (with your CPG), which is fine. Let him handle all the targeting, radio stuff and navigation. If he's not shooting stuff he's going to be bored anyway.

Edited January 21 by FalcoGer

[TZeer]

The SCAS is WIP.

There is oscillation on the yaw channel. This makes it almost impossible to keep it stable over time. I have reported it, and it's known for the team.
I have also noted the excessive "crabbing" behaviour while trying to fly straight. Think the worst episode was looking out through the side glass while in aerodynamic trim , to see where is was going.
 

[Chaffee]

Personally I trim the Flight Path Vector to center when flying straight and fly the ball to center when cornering. This keeps me out of the trees.

Seems to make some sense, given this is a long narrow platform with some weird mass placement. I can't say if it's too much, but it does always feel like there's a lot of wind, as I have to re-trim whenever I change heading. I expect a chopper to be dynamic, but calm weather often feels like a 10-knot wind.

Might do some flight tests to see how it's affected by loadouts: there's a lot of mass in some weird places on this thing.

[Mad_Shell]

10 hours ago, Chaffee said:

Personally I trim the Flight Path Vector to center when flying straight and fly the ball to center when cornering. This keeps me out of the trees.

Funny because you should be doing the exact opposite

Ball centered = aerodynamic trim, the aircraft flies in the most efficient manner, so you should use it when flying straight during en route.

Nose to tail trim (centered flight path) should be used when maneuvering low around obstacles, to make sure you keep your tail clear of obstacles.

[Chaffee]

6 hours ago, Mad_Shell said:

Funny because you should be doing the exact opposite

Ball centered = aerodynamic trim, the aircraft flies in the most efficient manner, so you should use it when flying straight during en route.

Nose to tail trim (centered flight path) should be used when maneuvering low around obstacles, to make sure you keep your tail clear of obstacles.

I agree, but usually I'm doing 120kt+ at ~5 feet, so if that ball is centered when I'm going straight, the obstacle will be behind the cockpit frame, 100% of the time. (Also zipping low and fast along tree lines, I want that tail behind me, not trimming the hedge).

En route, I'll fly aerodynamic trim, because yeah, fuel etc. But in the weeds? No thank you. (I've never hit an obstacle with my tail).

Edited February 1 by Chaffee

[zerO_crash]

On 1/20/2024 at 2:19 AM, Typhonus2 said:

1. Why does this helicopter wobble so much in flight? I have the Hind, the MI-8, and the KA-50. All of them are relatively stable on their X-axis during normal flight. The Apache seems to constantly wobble. I've tried desaturating various axes on my high-end controllers, adding curves, etc. Nothing really does much to improve it without making the controls so insensitive to inhibit flight. It's like a Weeble.

2. The automatic flight control features seem far inferior to those in the Hind or the KA-50. Both have autopilots that can reasonably hold a course, assuming they are given sufficient authority from trim, etc. Likewise altitude. This doesn't hold to any course, but only attitude, speed, or altitude. And those seem to constantly slide away from the desired numbers with the slightest perturbation, no matter how carefully I trim.

3. It's always seemingly crabbing in flight, with its flight path indicator slid off to one side or the other. When the aircraft is in aerodynamic trim, it's often out of nose-to-tail trim, and vice versa. These others seem to fly much more "cleanly", so to speak. Since this is true of the Hind as well as the KA-50, it's not just the variation between tail rotors and coaxial systems.

4. It just feels much less stable and grounded than these other helicopters, so to speak. It is really maneuverable, which is nice. But flying it feels like a real chore in comparison. That seems odd for a machine that is quite a bit more technically advanced than either of the others.

I've watched a bunch of YouTube videos in this regard, and haven't found them overly enlightening. Cosmo basically says to hover less and to not worry so much worry about the crabbing and nose-to-tail trim, without really being clear about why it should be that way.

Can anyone offer some advice?

First and foremost, throw away the notion of comparing completely different helicopters with each othet. They all resemble helicopters (co-axial/main-tail rotor, general layout, and that's about it). There is absolutely no argument to be made in favour of one or the other, based on flawed observations and comparisons. Also, "technically", Ka-50 is far more advanced than either Mi-24P and Ah-64D. Mi-24P is as technically advanced as the Ah-64D. "Technologically" however, the AH-64 stresses a digital suite, which gives it certain edges, that while lacking others of Ka-50 and Mi-24P. These helicopters are not even built for the same missions (they share some), thus again, irrelevant comparison across.

 

While Ah-64D is relatively early in its development (so is Mi-24P), certain aspects of flying it are different, and will be different. This helicopter has less yaw-stabilization for a multiple of reasons;

a) Aerodynamically, it's is not as astreamlined as either of the Russian helicopters. It's fuselage is relatively short and bulky, vs width. Mind you, that is mainly the reason why it feels more responsive at maneuvering vs. Mi-24P. I won't compare Ka-50 for obvious reasons - a co-axial rotor is a completely different piece of technology which is simply far more effective and capable at what it does.

b) Its tail fin simply does not produce enough directional stability. A Mi-24P is ingerently more stable at speed due to the fact that fuselage tilts with regards to the main rotor, the fuselage is relatively slim for being so long, tail fin stabilizes the helicopter well directionally, the wings produce additional delay in rolling-moment, thus stabilizing the airframe further (tips of the wings are further vertically stabilized). As an example, the Ka-50, has three vertical stabilizers, one fin at the rear, and two on the rear horizontal stabs. That, in combination with a self-balancing contra-moment from the main co-axial further works in favour of the helicopter. Finally, the weight. The Russian helicopters, are simply far heavier than a Ah-64D would ever be, and that makes a huge difference with regards to the handling qualities. Just as a Sa-342 will feel jerky to a UH-1H, so will the Ah-64D be more potent to atmospheric effects (wind, turbulence, pressure, etc...) than a heavier airframe.

c) The design of the controls, and the built in augentation. Ka-50, again, UFO in many ways. It has a state-of-the-art stabilization suite with complete autopilot functions. Never heard of any other military helicopter have that. Mi-24P, has very effective stabilization modes, one being "heading hold" which is rock solid. The mission dictates the performance needed.

 

Again Ah-64D has its strengths and weaknesses. You cannot possibly go into this airframe assuming you'll find something similar to a different one, even if it's from the same manufacturer. There will be nuances, it will be tailored to its own mission. The reality has it, that Ah-64D has a very delicate control system, which you must handle with care. Micro-corrections are all it takes, to take handle this helicopter. The helicopter can be twitchy in certain conditions, that's why practice makes master. Do yourself the favour of having a completely open mind for a new helicopter. Also, due to the relatively light design of this airframe, it will react to wind. To top that off, the WIP-status means that everything is subject to change. You knew that when you purchased this module. That's what one signs up for, when buying into early access.

 

Also, to the keyboard-warriors here claiming that it should take "two weeks" to solve the problem; create your own simulation and show what you're worth! End of discussion!

Edited February 3 by zerO_crash

[bradmick]

The Apache has plenty of directional stability in real life. The helicopter is very, very stable. The statement of it lacking directional stability is incorrect. In reality the helicopter also isn’t “twitchy”, but it is responsive to inputs. A little goes a long way with regards to flight control inputs. So I do agree that the idea of “aim small, miss small” is important when flying the Apache.

Edited February 2 by bradmick

[zerO_crash]

I see. Would you state then that the horizontal "swaying" one experiences when at speed and trimmed ball centered primarily, is simply WIP right now? That you don't experience this, whether adverse meteorological conditions or not?

 

I understand it such that SCAS is currently the main culprit to a few other, rather odd, behaviours. 

[TZeer]

2 hours ago, zerO_crash said:

I see. Would you state then that the horizontal "swaying" one experiences when at speed and trimmed ball centered primarily, is simply WIP right now? That you don't experience this, whether adverse meteorological conditions or not?

 

I understand it such that SCAS is currently the main culprit to a few other, rather odd, behaviours. 

There is a bug, reported and worked on, on the SCAS for the Yaw- channel.

You can easily see this if you pull up the controll indicator (Ctrl + Enter). Have a look at the indicator for the Yaw-channel, and you will see the system is constantly oscillating left/right. It's not much, but it's enough to make the Apache go left/right when trying to fly straight. You also see the FPV move around left/right.

If you hold trim, the oscillation stops, release and it will start oscillating shortly after.

 

[bradmick]

4 hours ago, zerO_crash said:

I see. Would you state then that the horizontal "swaying" one experiences when at speed and trimmed ball centered primarily, is simply WIP right now? That you don't experience this, whether adverse meteorological conditions or not?

 

I understand it such that SCAS is currently the main culprit to a few other, rather odd, behaviours. 

Yeah, all of this is known...well known.

[zerO_crash]

I see, well, then I guess the good news is that it ain't something inherently native to the Ah-64, but rather the module awaiting refinements. I'm sure they'll get it settled then. That's even more reason not to build too many habits with the current FM, and rather treat it as is. Good that we got it settled

[RallyNH]

On 1/19/2024 at 8:19 PM, Typhonus2 said:

1. Why does this helicopter wobble so much in flight? I have the Hind, the MI-8, and the KA-50. All of them are relatively stable on their X-axis during normal flight. The Apache seems to constantly wobble. I've tried desaturating various axes on my high-end controllers, adding curves, etc. Nothing really does much to improve it without making the controls so insensitive to inhibit flight. It's like a Weeble.

2. The automatic flight control features seem far inferior to those in the Hind or the KA-50. Both have autopilots that can reasonably hold a course, assuming they are given sufficient authority from trim, etc. Likewise altitude. This doesn't hold to any course, but only attitude, speed, or altitude. And those seem to constantly slide away from the desired numbers with the slightest perturbation, no matter how carefully I trim.

3. It's always seemingly crabbing in flight, with its flight path indicator slid off to one side or the other. When the aircraft is in aerodynamic trim, it's often out of nose-to-tail trim, and vice versa. These others seem to fly much more "cleanly", so to speak. Since this is true of the Hind as well as the KA-50, it's not just the variation between tail rotors and coaxial systems.

4. It just feels much less stable and grounded than these other helicopters, so to speak. It is really maneuverable, which is nice. But flying it feels like a real chore in comparison. That seems odd for a machine that is quite a bit more technically advanced than either of the others.

I've watched a bunch of YouTube videos in this regard, and haven't found them overly enlightening. Cosmo basically says to hover less and to not worry so much worry about the crabbing and nose-to-tail trim, without really being clear about why it should be that way.

Can anyone offer some advice?

I'm glad I'm not alone in feeling many of the same things about the AH-64D.  I honestly can't speak to the level of accuracy of the FM and in no way am I saying it's wrong, but there is something about the AH-64D.  I own all the Helicopter modules and run a Warthog with an extension on it.  Every helicopter in the game is unique and has its own "personality", and I find I enjoy flying them all..... except the AH-64D.  I love the screens and the situational awareness you get in it (the Mi-24P's RWR is basically useless in multiplayer).  Plus other than the SA342m it is the only truly night-capable heli currently.  But then I fly it, and none of that matters because it just flies "ugly" for lack of a better way to put it, I can be more specific but I don't believe that's necessary.  I too have watched all the videos but find myself back in the same place with a wobbly helicopter, that I'm fighting to hold position to bob-up and shoot or any other delicate maneuvering.  I've watched other people fly the AH-64D in multiplayer and I don't seem to notice the same issue so it is likely some part or all of the problem is me, but it is interesting I'm not the only feeling this way.   

[Raisuli]

I've never flown a helicopter and am not entitled to an opinion, but the AH-64 is to me as the Hulk when he had Loki's ankle and was pounding him into the floor; every once in a while I'll try, poorly, to fly it for a few minutes, then I'll go have fun in something else.  Unfortunately I can't seem to let it go; a bit like Charlie Brown and that football, but the end result is the same.

That can't be blamed on the flight model; there are people who fly it well despite any minor blips or glitches in the implementation; it's all between the joystick and chair.

[MAXsenna]

A non-centering stick would probably make you guys have more fun with it. Just remember to hold the trim when you move the stick. Or at least press trim after you have moved it.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[cow_art]

Nah its not just the input device. Of course better devices help a bit. But if you can fly the other DCS helos well and expect the same level of finesse and control from the Apache, it really is a frustrating experience at the moment. The flight model / SCAS are just not there yet and it seems these problems have all been reported by SMEs a long time ago.

My current resolution is that I am not touching the Apache pilot seat again until Brad says he is perfectly happy with how the FM/SCAS behave.

 

Edited February 22 by cow_art

[Moxica]

Going from an old set of CH-products rudder pedals to the Thrustmaster Pendular Rudder changed the entire AH-64 experience for me.

[MAXsenna]

Nah its not just the input device. Of course better devices help a bit. But if you can fly the other DCS helos well and expect the same level of finesse and control from the Apache, it really is a frustrating experience at the moment. The flight model / SCAS are just not there yet and it seems these problems have all been reported by SMEs a long time ago.
My current resolution is that I am not touching the Apache pilot seat again until Brad says he is perfectly happy with how the FM/SCAS behave.
 

I believe you missed my point entirely. Have you tried a non-centering stick? Get the cheapest second hand stick you can get your hands on and remove the springs. You'll never look back.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[cow_art]

3 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

I believe you missed my point entirely. Have you tried a non-centering stick? Get the cheapest second hand stick you can get your hands on and remove the springs. You'll never look back.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

I use a  VKB MCGU, springs removed, dry clutch, 20cm extension. I bought it specifically because I thought it would maybe fix my gripes with how the Apache handles. It doesn't. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that such a setup helps. Its an awesome stick, it makes every helicopter better (including the Apache). But the issues I have with the Apache's handling (and that others have mentioned in this thread) are not just due to suboptimal input devices, they are caused by the WIP FM/SCAS logic.

Edited February 22 by cow_art

[jubuttib]

On 1/20/2024 at 3:19 AM, Typhonus2 said:

It just feels much less stable and grounded than these other helicopters, so to speak.

This is said while keeping in mind that the FM and SCAS are both WIP:

The SCAS currently has a slight tendency to kind of exaggerate your movements. The white diamond on the controls indicator is your input, the green cross is what the SCAS is doing, and you can often see, that right after you push into a direction, the SCAS is pushing into the same direction, increasing your input. I feel like this is one of the reasons why the helicopter feels more twitchy and unstable, any minor movement tends to get slightly exaggerated by the SCAS.

On the Hip I've generally found the opposite, the AP system pushing away from the direction where you move your cyclic, damping your inputs.

Been thinking of making a proper video out of this, but haven't yet gotten around to it. It could be on purpose, to make the helicopter more responsive to inputs, I dunno.

I have also managed to turn the SCAS off a few times by pressing the wrong button (how do you turn it back on?), and have noticed that this turns the helicopter into more of a Huey in a sense. It's "less stable" in the sense that it wobbles around by itself, when no input is given, more than with the SCAS on, like the Huey tends to, but it's also slightly less sensitive to stick inputs.

[Floyd1212]

If you go to the A/C > UTIL page you will see the FMC channels along the left side that you can enable/disable as desired to mess around without FMC assisting you.

[deloy]

Remember guys, the CAS (Command Augmentation System) is for a different reason than SAS, both systems are termed as SCAS as a whole.  The whole purpose of CAS (it is elaborated very well in the manual) is to give a "power steering" type of response where it augments your control input to make it feel the same when flying at all speeds, so this extra SCAS response you see on controls indicator is actually correct. The CAS should also function when FTR is depressed, which is not correctly modeled at the moment, therefore the helicopter response is the same as FMC off when you flying with Force Trim (FTR) depressed.  So essentially if you press and hold FTR, it just switches the CAS system off also.  This is very evident in control indicator, as you see no movement in "green cross".

 

Cheers