Long time unsolved bugs schudule or planning

[vgilsoler]

I would have a section in the updates for long time unsolved bugs. In every update a long time bug for a different airframe should be addressed. In that way we can see that ED takes a minimum care of every product and less criticism about abandoned products will be in the forum. 
 

I mean something like:

february update an old bug of F-5

april update an old bug of F86

june update an old bug of spitfire…

[BIGNEWY]

8 hours ago, vgilsoler said:

I would have a section in the updates for long time unsolved bugs. In every update a long time bug for a different airframe should be addressed. In that way we can see that ED takes a minimum care of every product and less criticism about abandoned products will be in the forum. 
 

I mean something like:

february update an old bug of F-5

april update an old bug of F86

june update an old bug of spitfire…

Hi, 

we know it can be frustrating for some users, we are dealing with lots of data and reports which take time to reproduce and report. We also then have to work on the priority issues first which may differ from users understanding of what is a priority. We tag most bug reports on the forum with its status.

When we have fixes we list them in our change log, that is the best place to see what has been fixed and what we have been working on. 

You can see we are not " abandoning " products, we even work on products that are over a decade old, work on older modules takes time as we have to fit it in when the dev teams have free time form other tasks, this can be frustrating and does require patience.

So please as mentioned review our change logs, it is the best place to see what work is being done to modules, the core of DCS and for new features.

thank you

[vgilsoler]

Hi,

I know you have your priorities and your limited hands on solving bugs and issues. But it will reduce the user frustration to see in every patch an ancient bug resolved and knowing that in the next update another ancient bug for a different airframe is resolved and the same for the next update. So every user can expect one (at least one) old bug solved of their favorite helo/plane for the next 6 months or one year.

I reviewed the change logs in every update and in all of them there is a lot of work done, of course, but there is always the feeling that some planes received more attention than others, even when there are reported bugs for years. I'm sure that focus in one (just one) of them for a different airframe in every patch will not disturb so much your development roadmap. And I'm not referring about eternal bugs discussions about 1 RPM or 5s more and the engine is death, I mean radios not working, incorrect bind controls, graphical glitches, etc.

What I'm looking for is not a punctual action, but a scheduled task that we can track. At this moment we only have your words (which I appreciate) but few facts (which I appreciate more)

I tried to be not rude, but I'm not English speak native, so thank you for understanding. 

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

no problem I understand your question and the reason for the thread. 

It has been discussed many times about a bug or task tracker but at this time we have no plans for a public one, if we give dates or timescales for potential fixes and we do not meet those dates we get even more negative comments from some people.

We understand the frustration with some long standing issues, but the system we use currently works best overall for keeping people informed. 

Myself and @NineLine are always happy to answer questions about issues and even chase them up so feel free to PM us any time here on the forum or our discord.

thank you 

[draconus]

2 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

no problem I understand your question and the reason for the thread.

I don't think you do. He does not ask for any tracker or more info. He asks for the teams to fix at least one really old bug on every update, even if it's low priority.

[BIGNEWY]

8 minutes ago, draconus said:

I don't think you do. He does not ask for any tracker or more info. He asks for the teams to fix at least one really old bug on every update, even if it's low priority.

And I answered already

4 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

work on older modules takes time as we have to fit it in when the dev teams have free time form other tasks, this can be frustrating and does require patience.

 

[vgilsoler]

3 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

We understand the frustration with some long standing issues, but the system we use currently works best overall for keeping people informed. 

I'm sorry but does not correct, if we need to request to rebump reports so often. You can see it in almost any bug forum.

4 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

work on older modules takes time as we have to fit it in when the dev teams have free time form other tasks, this can be frustrating and does require patience.

That's the point, in my opinion it has been demonstrated along the time that must be improved.

From my point of view the weakest point of DCS, even more than erratic IA or damage model, is the permanency of these old bugs.

Don't get me wrong, I think DCS is good, probably the best sim in the market, but as my mother said me when I was a child "you could do it better"

1 hour ago, draconus said:

He asks for the teams to fix at least one really old bug on every update, even if it's low priority.

Correct, and for a different helo/plane each time. Solving old bugs in only one frame, or a big update just will move the frustration from one side to another. At this moment it seems totally random (except for the big sellers) which bug and which plane will be the lucky one. 

[BIGNEWY]

11 minutes ago, vgilsoler said:

I'm sorry but does not correct, if we need to request to rebump reports so often. You can see it in almost any bug forum.

You dont need to bump a thread, if it has been reported it is in our system and no amount of forum bumping will help, but if you want to, feel free to PM me or Nineline and we will take a look to see where it is in the work schedule or highlight again to the team project managers.  

13 minutes ago, vgilsoler said:

From my point of view the weakest point of DCS, even more than erratic IA or damage model, is the permanency of these old bugs.

Yes and we are constantly working on AI, it is challenging, I have recently reported more issues with bridge crossing for ground AI and the team are already working on it. 

Damage models take way more time, we have already done a lot of work on WWII damage models and the xray system and eventually it will also be used with other modules.

15 minutes ago, vgilsoler said:

Correct, and for a different helo/plane each time. Solving old bugs in only one frame, or a big update just will move the frustration from one side to another. At this moment it seems totally random (except for the big sellers) which bug and which plane will be the lucky one. 

Again I can only say when the teams have time they will work on issues, but they do have a priority list to work on and other tasks, it just depends on free time. Our change logs will show what work have been done. 

thank you 

[Silver_Dragon]

18 minutes ago, vgilsoler said:

From my point of view the weakest point of DCS, even more than erratic IA or damage model, is the permanency of these old bugs.

Don't get me wrong, I think DCS is good, probably the best sim in the market, but as my mother said me when I was a child "you could do it better"

About the AI and the damage model, remember ED has working on the BFM AI and the Professional Damage Model has actualy no implemented into modern jets / helos, but working very weel on WW2 aircrafts.

[vgilsoler]

I know ED is working on IA and Damage Model, I just put them as examples to remark the importance I think it has to establish a different way to deal with long term bugs. 
 

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

You dont need to bump a thread, if it has been reported it is in our system and no amount of forum bumping will help, but if you want to, feel free to PM me or Nineline and we will take a look to see where it is in the work schedule or highlight again to the team project managers.  

I think this will only hide the problem from the forum to your inbox. In any case I will proceed in this way and you’ll have a PM (or some of them )

Thanks and Regards

[Kang]

A certain trouble with some of the bugs and issues that are long reported and at some point were labelled 'low priority' is that plenty of new things, that originate with higher priority, get shoveled in at a high enough rate to seemingly never get to these old problems. Lets not get into this whole 'this is complicated' topic, we all understand that some things are indeed very complicated, but that doesn't make us blind to the fact that some things are actually quite straightforward and just never get done because nobody ever has time to look into them.

[ShuRugal]

21 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

You dont need to bump a thread, if it has been reported it is in our system and no amount of forum bumping will help

Had to bump this thread five times over the course of two months before it was acknowledged and reported to the internal team.

There is absolutely a need for a more robust bug report ingestion and tracking process.  It shouldn't even be possible for a bug report to go completely UNNOTICED for that long.

[BIGNEWY]

if you think we have missed something message me or @NineLine we can have a look or get QA to take a look. 

We are dealing with reports from forums, private messages, social media, discord, emails it is easy to overlook something, so please just message us. 

thanks

[twistking]

@BIGNEWY when i was new to DCS there was talk about ED planning to create a public bug tracker, but nothing ever came from it.
Wouldn't something like this be extremely helpful for both players and devs alike?

I'm sure there are free and open source solution for good public, web-based bug tracking.

[BIGNEWY]

27 minutes ago, twistking said:

@BIGNEWY when i was new to DCS there was talk about ED planning to create a public bug tracker, but nothing ever came from it.
Wouldn't something like this be extremely helpful for both players and devs alike?

I'm sure there are free and open source solution for good public, web-based bug tracking.

We have no plans for a public tracker. 

thanks

[virgo47]

Kinda +1 for the whole sentiment. I've not been very long with DCS, but most of the time nothing frustrated me more than bugs I encountered only to find out they were reported years ago. Things like long hand on L-39 with pilot body shown, flaps/canopy controls in TF-51D (thankfully fixed recently!), Yak-52 toggle binding not working, minor but annoying Caucasus ATC bugs, etc. There are many other bugs other people care and I don't. I know bug fixing is not fun and you need also to bring in new stuff, but I'd have no problem having a slower year with more bug fixes. Of course, other people (and perhaps most of them) see it differently.

I'm really just voicing the sentiment. I wish DCS had fewer long-standing bugs. With or without a public tracker, I'm fine with the forums.

In retrospect, I also see some fixes, sure. But I'm not sure the debt is decreasing - especially with all the new stuff coming out. That must mean more maintenance in the future.

[vgilsoler]

Just to get the facts, I hope we can reduce the last list during the year.

I'm not taking in account if each modules have a long list of fixes or just one, and not including 3rd parties.

2024 Modules Updates

February Patch

DCS 2.9.3.51704

AH64D

F/A18C

F16C

MI24P

L39C

A10CII

FW190D9

FC3

KA50III

CA

Modules not (yet) updated in 2024

F5E

F86F

Mig15bis

Yak52

Mi8M

UH1H

BF109K4

FW190A8

Mosquito FBVI

P47D

P51D

Spitfire IX

 

[vgilsoler]

Just to get the facts, I hope we can reduce the last list during the year.

I'm not taking in account if each modules have a long list of fixes or just one, and not including 3rd parties.

2024 Modules Updates

April Patch

DCS 2.9.4.53707

AH64D

F/A18C

F16C

MI24P

A10CII

P51D

P47D

Spitfire IX

Yak52

Mi8M

Modules not (yet) updated in 2024

F5E

F86F

Mig15bis

UH1H

BF109K4

FW190A8

Mosquito FBVI

Edited June 20, 2024 by vgilsoler

[JCTherik]

On 4/15/2024 at 11:10 AM, vgilsoler said:

Modules not (yet) updated in 2024

The huey got lot of FM updates last year.

 

There is a real cost to context switching in development, and it's a lot bigger than people realise. It's a lot easier and faster to focus on one thing at a time.

It makes more sense to focus on a mod for a month and do a bunch of fixes at once and then move to another one, you get a lot more done in the same time.

 

I would still like it if old small bugs got fixed sooner though, like the huey slip ball that's been offset for years for example.

[virgo47]

1 hour ago, JCTherik said:

There is a real cost to context switching in development, and it's a lot bigger than people realise. It's a lot easier and faster to focus on one thing at a time.

It makes more sense to focus on a mod for a month and do a bunch of fixes at once and then move to another one, you get a lot more done in the same time.

I would still like it if old small bugs got fixed sooner though, like the huey slip ball that's been offset for years for example.

I absolutely agree with your last sentence.

As for the context switching (I'm a developer too) - it is a thing, no questions about that. But we're not talking a month here, we're talking months, even years. That is beyond the context switching of a developer. This is about the priorities of the company, perhaps they are spread thin, I don't know. I'm not saying they would not like to do it, but they leave many bugs unattended and focus on new stuff instead.

There will always be some ratio of bugs vs new features (modules, whatever). The question is how long the bugs are there, how many, etc. As a customer, I don't like the current ratio, but it is what it is.

[cfrag]

1 hour ago, JCTherik said:

There is a real cost to context switching in development, and it's a lot bigger than people realise. It's a lot easier and faster to focus on one thing at a time.

Yes and no. teams can focus on, and switch between similar/related topics much more rapidly and easily than between unrelated topics. The 'distance' (for lack of better words) between the code bases that they work on makes all the difference. For example, it's much better for a team to work on SOAP and REST-based systems alongside each other when maintaining infrastructure than doing SOAP for a month and then switch to REST. So, if there are multiple modules that are based on similar (related) code (usually also a code "age" thing), I would guess that it is more efficient if they progress those side-by-side rather than iteratively. And as @virgo47 remarked, the time frame is also relevant. Low-selling/older modules seem to get a lot less effort allocated than the new/shiny hot shot modules. So when a team task-switches to the Huey, yeah, that's a break for sure, requiring a context shift. That being said, it seems that whoever shifted into "Huey context" last year, they shifted out again rather quickly. That's what makes it so painful for me to watch.  

[vgilsoler]

Just to get the facts, I hope we can reduce the last list during the year.

I'm not taking in account if each modules have a long list of fixes or just one, and not including 3rd parties.

2024 Modules Updates

May Patch

DCS 2.9.5.55300

AH64D

F/A18C

F16C

A10CII

BF109K4

F5E

F86F

Mig15bis

Modules not (yet) updated in 2024

UH1H

FW190A8

Mosquito FBVI

Edited June 20, 2024 by vgilsoler

[virgo47]

2 hours ago, vgilsoler said:

Just to get the facts, I hope we can reduce the last list during the year.

I'm not taking in account if each modules have a long list of fixes or just one, and not including 3rd parties.

2024 Modules Updates

May Patch

DCS 2.9.5.55300

AH64D

F/A18C

F16C

A10CII

BF109K4

F5E

F86F

Mig15bis

Modules not (yet) updated in 2024

Yak52

Mi8M

UH1H

FW190A8

Mosquito FBVI

I was happy to see F5-E, F-86F and MiG-15bis on the list! I didn't expect that (F5-E was announced shortly before the patch). L-39 is high on my bug-fix-wish list - and so is Yak-52. At least trivialities such as toggle bindings working as toggles. But overall, I'm happy to see at least some love for older modules there.

[vgilsoler]

Just to get the facts, I hope we can reduce the last list during the year.

I'm not taking in account if each modules have a long list of fixes or just one, and not including 3rd parties.

2024 Modules Updates

Jun Patch

DCS 2.9.5.55918

AH64D

F/A18C

F16C

Mig15bis

Modules not (yet) updated in 2024

UH1H

FW190A8

Mosquito FBVI

Edited June 20, 2024 by vgilsoler

[draconus]

On 6/5/2024 at 5:08 PM, vgilsoler said:

Modules not (yet) updated in 2024

You missed some from 10th April

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/341576-dcs-changelog-and-updates-2024/?do=findComment&comment=5412784

Quote

DCS: Yak-52 by Eagle Dynamics

• FIXED: Reflections too strong under flashlight

DCS: Mi-8MTV2 by Eagle Dynamics

• Cockpit reflections tuned

Edited June 20, 2024 by draconus