not a bug guided bombs problem (Gbu12)

[Mort1234]

HI im new to the game i played like aweek ago with the a10cII and i used Gbu 12 and i start the game going airborn and start changing the gbu12 profile 

after i changed to ccrp after like 15 sec it changed back to ccip (i have tried to change the profile on ground and it does that too)

(watch the video)

[Yurgon]

4 hours ago, Mort1234 said:

after i changed to ccrp after like 15 sec it changed back to ccip

Don't select weapon stations, select profiles.

What you've been doing there is to select individual weapon stations, which in turn sets up manual profiles (M/whatever). These become lost as soon as they're deselected.

Instead, use the profile page to set up actual weapon profiles, and then either activate these weapon profiles through the DSMS PROF page or select them with DMS Right Short/Left Short with HUD as SOI.

[Lord Vader]

Hey @Mort1234

I believe @Yurgongave you a nice explanation on what you need to do in terms of profiles.

I can also suggest something much simpler: that you cycle modes in your HOTAS to CCRP every time the weapon defaults to CCIP. 

The A-10C is a complex aircraft with a lot of depth to its systems. So I give Kudos to you to make it your first aircraft in DCS. 

[Yurgon]

3 hours ago, Lord Vader said:

I can also suggest something much simpler: that you cycle modes in your HOTAS to CCRP every time the weapon defaults to CCIP. 

That's certainly a very neat trick!

I'd like to advocate against making that a habit, though.

CCIP/CCRP is just one of the many options that can be stored in profiles. Other options, depending on the type of weapon, include automatic lasing, release profile (ballistic aka dumb bomb or optimal aka guided), ripple settings, minimum altitudes, desired bomb fall time, safe escape maneuver, ...

Setting all of these in a profile means that the pilot will have the desired settings available whenever they're needed. It's possible to set up different profiles for the same weapon, for instance the fall retarded Mk-82 AIR can be set with and without the ballute opening, in turn allowing for low altitude and high altitude attacks with the same weapon and a different profile, all available via HOTAS commands once the profiles have been set up.

I believe pilots will have a much smoother experience in the A-10C when they're using the jet and its systems exactly as it was designed to be used.

Switching between CCRP and CCIP via the Master Mode Control Button is then a really handy way to get a very quick mode change when needed, but I'd argue that's not the best possible use of the system because of all the associated settings that CCIP/CCRP do not include by default.

[jaylw314]

As an aside, you can also cycle weapons profiles with the SEL rocker on the UFC.  For the super lazy, you can bind this to your HOTAS, and this works even if the HUD is not SOI.

I'd also mention a common source of confusion with cycling weapons profiles is that if you happen to be in GUNS Master Mode, DMS left/right and the SEL rocker both cycle your GUNS pipper mode instead, so watch out for that

 

[Mort1234]

hi first thank you yall for helping me , so i fixed that it changed back to ccip but it still says ccrp invalid after the bomb profile is on ccrp

[Yurgon]

19 hours ago, Mort1234 said:

i fixed that it changed back to ccip but it still says ccrp invalid after the bomb profile is on ccrp

Can you show that in another video or in a short track?

[Dragan]

Simply do it, turn on the laser on the switch, then turn on the auto laser in DSMS, then determine how long the laser should fire, I type it for 12 to 15 seconds, choose CCRP, you have 2 ways, if it's the keyboard, it's on the letter M or DSMS profile, make SPI, hold weapon release for 10 seconds and the bomb goes off..Enjoy watching the explosion via TGP 

P.S. In your video I see that you didn't enter Laser Time at all, it's only 12-15 seconds, and it looks like you don't have SPI, this is mandatory

Edited February 3 by Dragan

[jaylw314]

On 2/2/2024 at 3:44 PM, Mort1234 said:

hi first thank you yall for helping me , so i fixed that it changed back to ccip but it still says ccrp invalid after the bomb profile is on ccrp

It says 'CCRP Invalid' in the video because I can see in the lower left of the HUD your SPI is set to STPT, so your fire computer thinks you're trying to bomb your current steerpoint.  Waypoint zero is always your initial position, and you started in the air. The fire computer thinks you're trying to bomb a location in the air, so it throws a 'CCRP Invalid' warning when you're in CCRP.

If you started the mission on the ground, Waypoint zero would be on the ground at your home base, and you wouldn't get that error.  In general, attempting to bomb Waypoint zero is considered bad form   

TLDR change your steerpoint to an appropriate other waypoint, or change your SPI to a different sensor (such as the TGP), and the warning will go away and you will be given the appropriate CCRP cues

 

2 hours ago, Dragan said:

Simply do it, turn on the laser on the switch, then turn on the auto laser in DSMS, then determine how long the laser should fire, I type it for 12 to 15 seconds, choose CCRP, you have 2 ways, if it's the keyboard, it's on the letter M or DSMS profile, make SPI, hold weapon release for 10 seconds and the bomb goes off..Enjoy watching the explosion via TGP 

P.S. In your video I see that you didn't enter Laser Time at all, it's only 12-15 seconds, and it looks like you don't have SPI, this is mandatory

 

Lasing doesn't have anything to do with this, he has not even had a chance to drop yet

Edited February 4 by jaylw314

[ASAP]

This tends to get way overcomplicated because people like to use auto-lase and misinterpret a lot of different sources about how long you should actually lase, and they make things harder than it should be. There is no need to delay lase the bomb. That only makes since if you are at 30,000 feet doing .95 mach.

 

The GBU-12 profile (in the profile page, not the M/profile) should be changed to the following: 

- CCRP 

- Auto-lase: OFF

- Release point: BAL

 

To drop the bomb do the following.

1. select the GBU-12 profile, there are three ways to do it, none of them involve selecting the station in DSMS

2. Have your SPI on the target, doesn't matter how you do that. I prefer strpt or mark, TGP SPI is the easiest to screw up because most DCS players don't understand what TGP SPI actually means

3. Use HUD symbology to fly the jet to your release point

4. Turn the laser on

5. pickle at the release point

6. Keep the TGP on the desired impact point.

6. bomb impacts target

7. turn off your laser. 

 

 

You were most likely getting CCRP invalid because your SPI was something bogus or you had your profile set to something the bomb wasn't going to be able to do based on aircraft parameters and where your SPI was.

 

Edited February 4 by ASAP

[Yurgon]

28 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

The fire computer thinks you're trying to bomb a location in the air, so it throws a 'CCRP Invalid' warning when you're in CCRP.

I think that steerpoint being in the air isn't even the issue here; the IFFCC should be able to guide the weapon to such a point without any problems. I assume the issue is that this steerpoint is actually above the jet, and that in turn doesn't work too well, because gravity.

Anyway, I asked OP for a new video or a track because we can't know if the problem appears under the same circumstances as in the video in post #1. It does seem OP is maybe moving a tad fast with the A-10C and skipping a lot of basics, so I'd rather not assume anything and instead look at a concrete example.

26 minutes ago, ASAP said:

The GBU-12 profile (in the profile page, not the M/profile) should be changed to the following: 

- CCRP 

- Auto-lase: OFF

- Release point: BAL

Regarding the release point, do you mean the Solution (SOLN)? Any particular reason for a ballistic release point? My understanding is that's useful only for deliberate non-guided attacks, basically turning the Paveway back into a dumb bomb (with a now unused expensive guidance kit still attached to it). For attacks with terminal guidance, the Optimal Release Point (ORP) should be used, shouldn't it?

[Dragan]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

It says 'CCRP Invalid' in the video because I can see in the lower left of the HUD your SPI is set to STPT, so your fire computer thinks you're trying to bomb your current steerpoint.  Waypoint zero is always your initial position, and you started in the air. The fire computer thinks you're trying to bomb a location in the air, so it throws a 'CCRP Invalid' warning when you're in CCRP.

If you started the mission on the ground, Waypoint zero would be on the ground at your home base, and you wouldn't get that error.  In general, attempting to bomb Waypoint zero is considered bad form   

TLDR change your steerpoint to an appropriate other waypoint, or change your SPI to a different sensor (such as the TGP), and the warning will go away and you will be given the appropriate CCRP cues

 

Lasing doesn't have anything to do with this, he has not even had a chance to drop yet

 

This procedure that I wrote is my standard procedure, and I have never had a problem, and I drop the GBU-12 bomb from different heights, but always above 10,000 feet. And it is definitely not a problem here, the most important thing that I noticed is that the SPI was not made, it it simply doesn't get the chance to drop the bomb, in short, the computer doesn't know what to do because it doesn't have all the data.

Edited February 4 by Dragan

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Yurgon said:

I think that steerpoint being in the air isn't even the issue here; the IFFCC should be able to guide the weapon to such a point without any problems. I assume the issue is that this steerpoint is actually above the jet, and that in turn doesn't work too well, because gravity.

You are correct, kind sir!   It's only when the steerpoint is above the aircraft that you get the CCRP INVALID warning.  Learn something new every day!

[Yurgon]

2 hours ago, Dragan said:

the most important thing that I noticed is that the SPI was not made, it it simply doesn't get the chance to drop the bomb

Not quite sure what you mean by this, so I'd just like to point out that there's always a SPI (unless the jet is broken). The lower left corner of the HUD always shows the SPI (or the sensor currently in charge of generating the SPI).

Like jaylw314 already pointed out and like you also suggest, the video in post #1 shows STPT as SPI, and with INIT POS selected as steerpoint, it's a bit unlikely that the player wants to employ weapons on this spot. But for the sake of nitpickyness: it would be perfectly valid to attack the INIT POS with a CCRP attack, as far as the A-10C IFFCC is concerned. It's just a point in space, and as long as the weapon drop calculations come up with a valid solution, the jet will gladly drop a weapon on this point when the pilot gives consent to release. This is probably not a thing anyone would ever want to do, but it is perfectly valid.

And for the sake of completeness: when dropping a GBU-12 on the INIT POS steerpoint in the air, the bomb will simply fall through this point and impact the ground somewhere below it. Like I said, probably not something a pilot wants to do.

[ASAP]

14 hours ago, Yurgon said:

Regarding the release point, do you mean the Solution (SOLN)? Any particular reason for a ballistic release point? My understanding is that's useful only for deliberate non-guided attacks, basically turning the Paveway back into a dumb bomb (with a now unused expensive guidance kit still attached to it). For attacks with terminal guidance, the Optimal Release Point (ORP) should be used, shouldn't it?

You're right, I miss ID'd the button. I'm not at my home computer so I couldn't look it up. I believe you're right and it's the SOLN option that should be set to ballistic (which is basically referring to the release point). You are either telling the jet to drop the bomb at a point where even if the bomb never finds the laser it will still impact close to the target (drop the bomb on a BALlistic trajectory, just like when you drop a mark 82 CCRP), or you are telling the jet to release the bomb at the OPTimum spot to grant the highest probability of laser acquisition (OPT) which means it's trying to give the bomb a better look angle when it releases. This means the bomb (Which is already prone to falling short due to excessive energy bleed) is dropping further out. Since it's not dropped ballistically, if it doesn't find your laser for whatever reason, Newton is taking the bomb to the ground somewhere short of your target. when it does find the energy, it has a lot more work to do to make it to the target.

In either circumstance, the bomb is still going to fall away from the pylon, the all the lanyards are still going to pull the pins on the CCG and the tail fins, and the bomb is still going to look for the reflected energy of the properly coded laser and it's going to do its bang-bang guidance to maneuver towards it. the SOLN setting doesn't affect what the bomb does after it leaves the jet AT ALL. It only effects where the jet wants to release the weapon.

TLDR: OPT gives you an insignificantly better chance for the bomb to acquire the laser at the expense of a MUCH higher risk of missing the target. Lasing the bomb from the time you pickle all the way through impact makes the chance of it not seeing the laser pretty much null.

Edited February 4 by ASAP

[Yurgon]

12 hours ago, ASAP said:

OPT gives you an insignificantly better chance for the bomb to acquire the laser at the expense of a MUCH higher risk of missing the target.

Interesting. In over 10 years of reading these forums, I believe this is the first time anyone has ever recommend the ballistic LGB-solution over the optimal release point. Can you elaborate on the reasoning behind that? Is that based on logic, manuals, tests within DCS, recommendations from actual pilots, some other source...?

For what it's worth, the DCS A-10C and A-10C II manuals don't explain BAL and ORP in any detail. The only mention I could find says:

Quote

Solution (OSB 16). Set desired flight path of bomb between ORP for Optimal Release Point and BAL for Ballistic release point.

Note that the manual does not mention improved odds of picking up the laser with ORP.

I also just set up a quick test in the current OpenBeta, dropping a total of 4 GBU-12 from 12,000 ft MSL against a TGP designated target near sea level with no guidance. 2 of the bombs were released with ORP and 2 of them with BAL. Interestingly enough, they all landed the same distance from the target, only one was offset a bit to the right and that was most likely caused by a piloting error on my behalf.

In essence, it seems DCS doesn't currently simulate the difference between the release point solutions at all; once it does, it might make sense to revisit the discussion and figure out the kind of scenario where we would actually see a difference in PK.

Edited February 4 by Yurgon

[Mort1234]

ok thank you guys your answers helped me alot 

[ASAP]

On 2/4/2024 at 11:44 AM, Yurgon said:

Interesting. In over 10 years of reading these forums, I believe this is the first time anyone has ever recommend the ballistic LGB-solution over the optimal release point. Can you elaborate on the reasoning behind that? Is that based on logic, manuals, tests within DCS, recommendations from actual pilots, some other source...?

For what it's worth, the DCS A-10C and A-10C II manuals don't explain BAL and ORP in any detail. The only mention I could find says:

Note that the manual does not mention improved odds of picking up the laser with ORP.

I also just set up a quick test in the current OpenBeta, dropping a total of 4 GBU-12 from 12,000 ft MSL against a TGP designated target near sea level with no guidance. 2 of the bombs were released with ORP and 2 of them with BAL. Interestingly enough, they all landed the same distance from the target, only one was offset a bit to the right and that was most likely caused by a piloting error on my behalf.

In essence, it seems DCS doesn't currently simulate the difference between the release point solutions at all; once it does, it might make sense to revisit the discussion and figure out the kind of scenario where we would actually see a difference in PK.

 

That was the explanation I got from a pilot. It's very possible DCS doesn't care and doesn't accurately simulate the difference. 

Out of curiosity what was your altitude and airspeed for each drop? It's possible that the ORP and BAL solution are almost identical depending on parameters. 

[jaylw314]

12 minutes ago, ASAP said:

That was the explanation I got from a pilot. It's very possible DCS doesn't care and doesn't accurately simulate the difference. 

Out of curiosity what was your altitude and airspeed for each drop? It's possible that the ORP and BAL solution are almost identical depending on parameters. 

I'd have to imagine ORP would always be a little bit later than BAL.  I don't know how much of an advantage BAL would be--sure, if there was no laser, the bomb may still hit.  But I imagine there are plenty of failure modes with lasers where it would stop early, be intermittent, or off target, and with a ballistic release you might have the energy to recover.  

And FWIW, @Yurgon did say his altitude was 12k' MSL, and since he was in an A-10, we know the speed was...slow

 

Edited February 5 by jaylw314

[Yurgon]

4 hours ago, ASAP said:

Out of curiosity what was your altitude and airspeed for each drop?

I dropped all from 12,000 MSL (also AGL, right next to the Georgian coast, you know the good ole X shaped airfield ) at 245 KIAS. At these parameters, I'd expect to see at least some difference between BAL and ORP.

4 hours ago, ASAP said:

It's possible that the ORP and BAL solution are almost identical depending on parameters.

If you find a set of parameters where this setting does make a difference, I'd sure be interested if you could share them!

4 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I'd have to imagine ORP would always be a little bit later than BAL.

So far this was my understanding as well, but a lack of documentation makes it hard to be sure.

[ASAP]

On 2/5/2024 at 6:16 PM, Yurgon said:

I dropped all from 12,000 MSL (also AGL, right next to the Georgian coast, you know the good ole X shaped airfield ) at 245 KIAS. At these parameters, I'd expect to see at least some difference between BAL and ORP.

It very likely isn't modeled making the whole thing academic. I'd suggest going to the extremes if you really want to test it out. Try dropping it at 3,000 feet and 23,000 feet and see if there's a difference. I'm out of town and not able to test it myself. I am curious what the game does though. 

If I had to guess Id think the difference would be more pronounced at lower altitudes, but that's just my hypothesis.

Edited February 8 by ASAP