Apache AH-64 Collective Grip - First Thoughts

[Lumbergh]

I've been flying with it a for a few days now. Here are some first thoughts if you're on the fence.

Grip: To be clear, I love the grip. It's amazing to have the one-to-one control now; this alone is worth it and I love it!!! I recommend you buy it but there are few things to be aware of before you do. First, its made from plastic--I mean slick, cheap, plasticky plastic like you'd see on a $50 stick. It's not at all like my previous LH constellation grip or my winwing which are heavy duty resin/composite and feel solid and substantial. This grip feels insubstantial, cheap, and toylike and there is even a heavy mold line right down the middle on the top and bottom that's in your palm and on your fingertips that cannot be ignored. Im probably going to have to debur or sand it down. If you are the type to need something substantial (metal or heavy-duty resin), then be aware of this. This was a bad design choice Virpil. I understand the design decision because of weight (I hope you didnt do this to save a few pennies) and a common complaint of the TCS collective not being balanced and the brakes had to be so tight that stiction was a big issue. However, the counter balance is so good, it easily could have offset a composite resin grip with zero issues. The price point was great, Virpil, but you really should have used the same material as your other grips or offer a premium version that resolves the fisher-price feel. I'd have easily paid more for that.

The counterbalance is fucking amazing! If you buy the grip/collective, get this. It holds the collective exactly where you want it with zero brake applied so there is zero stiction; a very clever design that works perfectly!!! If you already have the collective and a different grip, GET THIS. If you made or bought one of those clunky counterbalances that stick out the end, replace it with this.

One last thing: Virpil, if you're reading, give us a damn bracket to mount on the left side or a way to reverse the collective. Chair mounts suck and you have to rube-goldberg if you dont drop a grand or two on a sim pit.

[Scott-S6]

This is concerning. I was expecting the same PA GF material as their other sticks. 

If this is standard and not just a poor mix on Lumbergh's example then I'll be returning mine.

[Marshallman]

Any others with delivered Collectives care to chime in please?

Edited February 3 by Marshallman

[zcaa0g]

I will be getting this grip, but bring on the AH-64 Prime grip also. 

[Turd Ferguson]

Mine arrived yesterday. I installed the counter balance kit which is amazing. The collective moves freely and smoothly with zero resistance. After using the base with clutches for 2 years I wasn't sure how much of an impact a counter balance kit could have however it's a huge improvement over the clutches.

 

Onto the grip itself. It's great to have the proper grip with all the correct buttons. It is very plasticy though, the switches feel cheap, the cursor joystick alao feels quite fragile and for some reason calibrates off centre tried 4 or 5 times with the same result.

 

The jettison switch covers feel a bit strange when you lift them up and they spring straight back down so I find to press the switch under them I've got to burrow my finger under the cover. Maybe that's what the real aircraft is like though.

 

There is a little bit of wobble with it too it moves about half an inch left and right using a chair mount and extension plate. Everything is tightened but it's still a bit wobbly.

 

I'll probably keep the grip as it does look really cool and as I tend to fly the Apache mainly having the grip is a plus.

 

Compared to the other Virpil products I've got I find it a bit disappointing though

 

 

[markturner1960]

Mine just arrived....I see what the others mean about the material, but its not an issue for me....certainly wont be sending it back...Scott -S6, why would you even do that? What else you gonna use? Re the switches, I am sure if there is a quality issue Virpil will replace straight away or even change the switches, they have done this before with the F14 grip. This is the advantage of buying from a big established company. For the money paid, its a winner.

I have a question though about the options you choose in teh software for creating the profile....it gives you the choice between No mode modifier or Hold modifier. I could not find an online manual or any mention of what these options mean and do.....anyone here know? 

Edited February 4 by markturner1960

[bart]

Mine arrived yesterday along with the Counter Balance Kit I ordered at the same time. I have to agree the materials and switches arn't as good as I was expecting. I already have their VPC Hawk-60 grip which is great and of very high quality, still plastic but just feels different to the 64 grip.....better quality. I can only think Virpil wanted to keep the weight of the grip down as it's really really long when fitted to the collective base. It's a good 2 ft in length from the pivot point on the base to the end of the grip.

The Counter Balance Kit is very well designed as others have said and well worth the money, even if you are not getting the 64 grip it's still worth having. I had made a counter balance arm that was attached to my collective base and it worked great, it just stuck out the back of the rig about 14 inches with a weight bolted to it. The Virpil counterbalance keeps everything together so no more arm to bump into when I walk past the rig!.

I'm still in the process of making a metal mounting bracket to bolt onto the rig as I've had to move the base way back from it's origional position due to the length of the combined 64 grip and the TCS Rotor Plus base, so I haven't used the grip in anger so to speak yet, but I certainly have no plans to return it! 

[Marshallman]

Anyone seen the bindings list??

It was off a YT Video for the Apache Collective, which I cant remember which one.

Hope its ok to add it here

Regards

Collective bindings.xlsx

Edited February 4 by Marshallman

[Turd Ferguson]

Cheers for this @Marshallman

[Grennymaster]

i orderd on day one, but it havent been shiped yet

 

[Cyborg71]

Mine arrived last Friday.

I've not used it yet as I'm having to make considerable alterations to my "cockpit" to make it fit. The seat and all of my mounts are made bespoke from  MDF and I tend to over engineer them to reduce wobble. We'll see.....

One of my original concerns was the leverage and weight the Apache collective would bring. Something that long is going to move around. It only has a single small pivot point. I'm amazed they didn't produce a cheaper "shorty" collective base (minus the throttle).  It would've solved that problem.

I agree the plastics look and feel cheap. It does nicely resemble the real thing though. And I compliment Virpil for actually doing it and keeping the price reasonable.

When it was revealed I was convinced it would be much more expensive.

There are other companies producing a 64 collective and the prices easily exceed £1200. They certainly don't look better and are rarely reviewed by anyone.

Once I've had a proper play I will update and post a photo.

I originally used the Sharka 50. That always felt like a quality item.

 

 

 

[Scott-S6]

On 2/4/2024 at 4:27 PM, markturner1960 said:

Mine just arrived....I see what the others mean about the material, but its not an issue for me....certainly wont be sending it back...Scott -S6, why would you even do that? What else you gonna use? 

 

Other grips, which I already have. I don't need a 64 grip specifically (I fly lots of aircraft and even if replica controls were available for all of them constantly swapping would become tedious very quickly). I ordered the 64 grip because it's the most versatile option but that's not sufficient for me to tolerate a poor quality unit.

Edited February 6 by Scott-S6

[Marshallman]

Arrived yesterday, mods required for my mounting beam on the Playseat, based on grip length. Software update off Virpil to enable recognition calibration and grip button tests.

New collective counter balance is an absolute game changer...standard for any Collective. 

Virpil instructions clear, cover everything and make the job easy.

Light yes... I have a friend who says "the only thing that requires weight is a steamroller" ..not noticable once all mounted. The unit becomes one.

Easily Programmed in the collective drop down for the AH64D Pilot. Easily programmed to add George.

All buttons have play in them before hitting the relevant switch for that button. Little bit much for me, the Alpha I just removed they have much less play and subsequently feels better quality. Would rubber washer damping assist this? I dont know.

Everything relates to the in cockpit collective, so even in VR you can look down at it until it becomes a reflex action.

Flight impressions... SMOOTH as silk collective... mission and flight grips are reasonable... a bit strange at first deciding which grip to use flying...lolol

Visiting the firing range ....no requirements for collective changes in the setup, smooth in flight. FCR easy setup and delivery.  George setup simple utilising the FCR mode switch button.

Weapon delivery easy to get into, works great.

Now also programmed with Gazelle, Huey, MI8, UH60. Hind is going to take some time as I am not current on it for a while.

Overall...great buy, more authenticity, more immersion.

Left hand Alpha grip up for sale shortly

Regards

Nimbus

 

 

 

[Scott-S6]

Mine's here.The quality issue is overblown, imo (and I'm very fussy about this). An extra 10% GF would have made it look and feel better but it's fine, it doesn't creak or flex. My main complaint is that the two-way hats are very sloppy. (other than the usual of virpil adding press to hats that are not shaped or positioned for it to work ergonomically but that's not hard to eliminate)

Edited February 7 by Scott-S6

[98abaile]

I got mine installed and I like it, the new damper is amazing too. My only complains aren't to do with the grip at all, I'd like to mount the collective about 2 inches lower but there's no combination of the mounting hardware that would let me do that (I've got some aluminium spacers on the way).

A point people should look out for: just because you have the new damper installed doesn't mean you can completely undo the clutches. If you slacken the clutches off fully you'll find the shaft wobbles quite noticeably. My advice would be to lube the clutches with silicon grease and then tighten them just enough to remove the side to side play.

[AKA_Clutter]

On 2/7/2024 at 12:38 AM, Marshallman said:

....

Easily Programmed in the collective drop down for the AH64D Pilot. Easily programmed to add George.

... ...

Now also programmed with Gazelle, Huey, MI8, UH60. Hind is going to take some time as I am not current on it for a while.

 

Regards

Nimbus

 

 

Interested in how you did this.  Do you have layouts you care to share.

[Marshallman]

Yes there a message from me further up that contains a excel file with all the settings.

But here it is for you.

Regards

 

Collective bindings.xlsx

[AKA_Clutter]

Thanks.  Sorry I missed the first post.

[Marshallman]

3 hours ago, AKA_Clutter said:

Thanks.  Sorry I missed the first post.

Not a Problem!!!
I programmed George (AI helper) onto the GTM  4 way hat and consent to fire onto the small grey button below it...works well.

[KeyserSoze62]

Just got mine and strongly agree with several posts here. It just doesn't have that expected Virpil quality to it out of the box. The plastic body doesn't bother me so much but the buttons and switches are just sub par for Virpil. I've got hundreds of hours on my other Virpil devices and I don't even consider they will fail.  This not so much. Feels like its not long for this world from the start but we will see. It looks sweet though.

The counterbalance is superb though. Amazing design and I can loosen the clutches almost completely and adjust the collective with the counterbalance alone. I had the clutches completely loose so the collective dropped freely. Adjusted the counterbalance until it held it in any position with absolutely no movement, then just added a touch of clutch to give it some resistance and its perfect.

 

[KeyserSoze62]

Just a follow up on my original post. Flying it in missions now I am even more disappointed with the quality of switches. Especially the "Push" on the 4 way and 3 way buttons.  They are absolutely awful and inconsistent. Mushy and terribly balanced. Its as if the stem on the buttons is just too tall and when you try and get a clean push they rock side to side. In game they failed to click several times unless I really slowed down and found the sweet spot to push.  The push on all my other Virpil devices is short and crisp. l don't see how I can use the push on any of these buttons so they are essentially useless and I just won't map them for now. I also find the two pinky buttons on backside of grip terrible as well. Way too much travel and play before you get the click. They should have used the same two small buttons they have on the top front of grip. Those feel fine.

I still feel the body of the grip is not an issue at all. No flex and feels fine in the hand.  If the buttons were on par with the other Virpil grips it would be a huge win but they are terrible.

 

 

Edited February 15 by KeyserSoze62

[heloguy]

Does anyone know why the B/S function isn't able to be mapped in the sim yet?  Or am I missing something?

[AKA_Clutter]

Here is what someone said on Casmo's Discord channel.
 

Because it doesn't do anything in the real helicopter.

It's why the cursor auto jumps to the boresight potion on the MFD.

So it's not that ED didn't implement it, they just implemented in accordance with sme feedback and how it works in the software version presented.

[heloguy]

Thanks for that.

[BigBANGtheory]

Some initial thoughts and mounting for those interested as I go through my journey of getting it setup: