Being able to fully trim the aircraft from the navigator's position in SP could help in using the radios.

[Lau]

I understand the logic behind not allowing the navigator to reach the elevator trim, but in SP and since there is no AI pilot, it would be nice to allow players to fully trim the airframe from the navigator's position. I believe this could help SP using the radios while they monitor and adjust the flight controls. It feels weird to be able to use roll, fly the airplane but not be able to use the elevators trim, I forgot to check yaw...

The navigator should be able to fully trim the aircraft in SP (Roll, Pitch, Yaw).

Best,

Lau

[jonsky7]

On 3/20/2024 at 5:05 PM, Lau said:

I understand the logic behind not allowing the navigator to reach the elevator trim, but in SP and since there is no AI pilot, it would be nice to allow players to fully trim the airframe from the navigator's position. I believe this could help SP using the radios while they monitor and adjust the flight controls. It feels weird to be able to use roll, fly the airplane but not be able to use the elevators trim, I forgot to check yaw...

The navigator should be able to fully trim the aircraft in SP (Roll, Pitch, Yaw).

Best,

Lau

I don't know if you know, but there is a lovely autopilot Mod made by pxllux, can fly straight and level, or hold altitude in a turn.

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3330835/

[Lau]

Hi @jonsky7, thanks for the info I will check it out, could be useful when I will start learning the navigators radios in the back of the cockpit, although I am managing to have a stable mossie, that is with some small inputs all the time and without turbulences. At the time there was no autopilot like in many small GA airframes still today, it takes some practice but many pilots around the world still fly without an autopilot it keeps all your senses active and help you develop a 6th sense, almost like the cats 

Flying the old school way is fun, but I need ED to help out single players by allowing us to fully trim the airframe from the navigator seat, we are just missing pitch, since yaw and roll are at reach to the navigator and ED modeled this properly.

Best,

Lau

Edited March 24 by Lau

[Bozon]

9 hours ago, Lau said:

Hi @jonsky7, thanks for the info I will check it out, could be useful when I will start learning the navigators radios in the back of the cockpit, although I am managing to have a stable mossie, that is with some small inputs all the time and without turbulences. At the time there was no autopilot like in many small GA airframes still today, it takes some practice but many pilots around the world still fly without an autopilot it keeps all your senses active and help you develop a 6th sense, almost like the cats 

Flying the old school way is fun, but I need ED to help out single players by allowing us to fully trim the airframe from the navigator seat, we are just missing pitch, since yaw and roll are at reach to the navigator and ED modeled this properly.

Best,

Lau

 

I understand where you are going with this, however I think that this is just avoiding the main issue. Multi-crew aircraft require a certain level of AI for single-player. There are other multi-crew modules in DCS from helicopters to modern jets with different levels of AI for each of the crew: Pilots, WSOs, gunners. The DCS warbirds don’t get any AI and the Mosquito is the first warbird module to really warrant it.

We only need a very basic and minimal pilot AI, to allow us to hop on to the navigator seat and do navigator’s s#!+. It would be really really nice to also have a slightly more sophisticated navigator AI, who is also interactive and can perform several tasks.

DCS warbirds isn’t going in that direction it seems, so just give us a pilot “AI” who shuts up and holds level and heading - just a basic autopilot.

[Lau]

By all means, just make it optional. 

There two different things IMO:

1) How far ED will push the simulation considering that they have proved to be very bad in adding realistic AI to DCS. This is the number one reason why ED is not keen in developing any AI projects, simply not worth it in terms of revenue (read, they are bad at it and loose too much time). On the user side the result at least on my end is to avoid as much as possible using AI, the only airframe that I must fly with an AI pilot is the HB F14 since the RIO is not able to fly from the rear seat and it is an awful experience, the AI not being even able to maintain speed during turns. The result is that we spend our time reporting bugs and begging for months, years for a fix that sometimes end up never coming. The customer experience in that perspective is terrible and a real waste of time. While it takes some practice to fly two seaters airframes single handed, once you get a grip of it, you stop relaying on poor AI and the flight operation becomes more dynamic and fluid in the AO.

2) Rather than considering that taking the workload of both pilot and navigator as a way of avoiding the main issue, I do it for the pleasure of flying. The Mossie is in reality not more than a big fighter plane, it does not even have a bombing sight, flying it is not much different than flying the Spit, P51 or any other single seater, here I am referring to the pilot workload and not to the flight characteristics of each individual airframe. Leaving the pleasure to fly to an AI is a choice, sometimes a need for those learning the airframe, a rightful expectation since the Mossie has indeed a navigator and not everyone has a body available to take that role. However, once used to the twin engine aspect, properly trimmed and with your joystick also properly calibrated to allow for stable flight, she is very stable outside of turbulences that is. While operating the radios you also have a good view on the flying instruments and the wings, I had no trouble last night going through the excellent Chuck's Guide for operating the radios for both communication and navigation and even operating the E6B computers and map while diverting to another airfield after an engine failure, she can be fully trimmed on all axis and she is very stable once this is done. Beyond the pleasure of flying that is taken away by the AI, you also have all the thinking that goes in to every input, correction that you give to the airframe since they are all connected to each other.

While the AI is flying you are not improving your flying skills, therefore yes to an optional and poorly developed AI with the possibility for SP to fully trim the airframe from the navigator’s seat.

Best,

Lau

 

Edited March 26 by Lau

[BIGNEWY]

37 minutes ago, Lau said:

1) How far ED will push the simulation considering that they have proved to be very bad in adding realistic AI to DCS. This is the number one reason why ED is not keen in developing any AI projects, simply not worth it in terms of revenue (read, they are bad at it and loose too much time).

This is incorrect, we have done a lot of work with AI, George and Petrovich AI continue to be worked on and tweaked. General flight model ( gfm ) is also in progress for AI aircraft, and AI ground units also continue to be worked on with fixes and adjustments. All this work takes time and can not be rushed, it is never a good idea to make ill-informed assumptions. 

Regarding the mossie AI crew the team have been planning its implementation for a future update.

thank you 

[Rudel_chw]

14 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

... it is never a good idea to make ill-informed assumptions. 

 

+1 Couldn't agree more   

 

14 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Regarding the mossie AI crew the team have been planning its implementation for a future update.

 

Great news, it would make me return to the Mosquito ... I just need an AI pilot to hold straight & level flight while I do navigation duties 

[Eclipse]

On 3/26/2024 at 8:22 AM, BIGNEWY said:

... George and Petrovich AI continue to be worked on and tweaked. General flight model ( gfm ) is also in progress for AI aircraft, and AI ground units also... 

The General Flight Model will be a huge improvement.  The demo I saw maybe a year or so ago was very impressive.  Anyone who has a "the team is bad at doing X" attitude has no concept of how complex and difficult the "X" actually is. 

I'm looking forward to seeing how DCS continues to evolve over the next year, next few years, next decade... 

Thanks for all you do! 

[PawlaczGMD]

On 3/26/2024 at 7:52 AM, Lau said:

By all means, just make it optional. 

There two different things IMO:

1) How far ED will push the simulation considering that they have proved to be very bad in adding realistic AI to DCS. This is the number one reason why ED is not keen in developing any AI projects, simply not worth it in terms of revenue (read, they are bad at it and loose too much time). On the user side the result at least on my end is to avoid as much as possible using AI, the only airframe that I must fly with an AI pilot is the HB F14 since the RIO is not able to fly from the rear seat and it is an awful experience, the AI not being even able to maintain speed during turns. The result is that we spend our time reporting bugs and begging for months, years for a fix that sometimes end up never coming. The customer experience in that perspective is terrible and a real waste of time. While it takes some practice to fly two seaters airframes single handed, once you get a grip of it, you stop relaying on poor AI and the flight operation becomes more dynamic and fluid in the AO.

2) Rather than considering that taking the workload of both pilot and navigator as a way of avoiding the main issue, I do it for the pleasure of flying. The Mossie is in reality not more than a big fighter plane, it does not even have a bombing sight, flying it is not much different than flying the Spit, P51 or any other single seater, here I am referring to the pilot workload and not to the flight characteristics of each individual airframe. Leaving the pleasure to fly to an AI is a choice, sometimes a need for those learning the airframe, a rightful expectation since the Mossie has indeed a navigator and not everyone has a body available to take that role. However, once used to the twin engine aspect, properly trimmed and with your joystick also properly calibrated to allow for stable flight, she is very stable outside of turbulences that is. While operating the radios you also have a good view on the flying instruments and the wings, I had no trouble last night going through the excellent Chuck's Guide for operating the radios for both communication and navigation and even operating the E6B computers and map while diverting to another airfield after an engine failure, she can be fully trimmed on all axis and she is very stable once this is done. Beyond the pleasure of flying that is taken away by the AI, you also have all the thinking that goes in to every input, correction that you give to the airframe since they are all connected to each other.

While the AI is flying you are not improving your flying skills, therefore yes to an optional and poorly developed AI with the possibility for SP to fully trim the airframe from the navigator’s seat.

Best,

Lau

 

 

You are conflating the shortcomings of air AI with the fact that there is no AI assistance in some multicrew modules.

The general air AI shortcomings are being worked on, and it is currently OK for most AI planes, so it's not fair to attack it in this thread.

On the other hand, the Mossie should have a rudimentary AI pilot that at least flies straight and level when you jump to the navigator seat, I am surprised that this was not done. The navigator seat is fully modelled, but it is basically unusable in SP, which is how most players will realistically interact with it. So it is a lot of wasted work.

[Terry Dactil]

 

52 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

On the other hand, the Mossie should have a rudimentary AI pilot that at least flies straight and level

Already been done. This mod works perfectly.

 

[PawlaczGMD]

3 hours ago, Terry Dactil said:

 

Already been done. This mod works perfectly.

 

Thanks, I don't actually own the Mossie. It's good to know that a mod exists, but I was commenting on the fact that it really should have come with the module stock. 

[Terry Dactil]

1 hour ago, PawlaczGMD said:

I was commenting on the fact that it really should have come with the module stock. 

Yes. The Mosquito would be fantastic if it ever gets fully completed.

It had nothing I could see for it in the latest update. I will never buy anything in "early access" again.