Aim 120-C

[Hobel]

  

vor 7 Stunden schrieb rayon89:

At minute 18 you will be able to observe how the 120C missile loses the lock due to the flares..... Missiles according to the flight calculator to make impact have to be launched around mile 10 ... even so, an F5E manages to avoid it, do you really think what if an F18 launches a 120C from mile 8, locking the target, will it manage to dodge it with flares?

No not because of flare, at exactly 18:12 you hit the notch and hold it for a short time, the missle loses the lock at below ~25kts Vc.

When the missle is exactly 2798feet away from you, you leave the  notch and accelerate above 25kts again. we could now argue that the missle should now see you again, but it doesn't do that and I can't answer why.

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2024 by Hobel

[rayon89]

hace 6 horas, Hobel dijo:

  

No, no por el destello, exactamente a las 18:12 golpeas la muesca y la mantienes por un corto tiempo, el misil pierde el bloqueo por debajo de ~25 nudos Vc.

Cuando el misil está exactamente a 800 metros de ti, abandonas la muesca y aceleras de nuevo por encima de los 25 nudos. Ahora podríamos argumentar que el misil debería volver a verte, pero no lo hace y no puedo responder por qué.

 

 

 

 

You can try it yourself, shoot a 120C with the F18, give mile 15 to an F5E, see how many kills you get, even having everything in your favor, the missile is always lost, in addition, the fight outside visual range no longer exists. why at those distances it is better to use other types of missiles, why combat outside visual range no longer exists in this game

[Hobel]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb rayon89:

You can try it yourself, shoot a 120C with the F18, give mile 15 to an F5E, see how many kills you get, even having everything in your favor, the missile is always lost, in addition, the fight outside visual range no longer exists. why at those distances it is better to use other types of missiles, why combat outside visual range no longer exists in this game

 

also here your Tacview shows that you make all your Aim120 shots under 10,000 feet, one should not be surprised to have so little range...

 

and here

~50nm 4 Missles 4 Kills

 

 

Tacview-20240603-163444-DCS.zip.acmi

[Coxy_99]

Your just complaining at this point, Because you shoot in poor parameters, Notch is your LAST ditch defence sorry to say. Get higher get faster = Better results.

Edited June 3, 2024 by Coxy_99

[rayon89]

hace 2 horas, Hobel dijo:

 

also here your Tacview shows that you make all your Aim120 shots under 10,000 feet, one should not be surprised to have so little range...

 

and here

~50nm 4 Missles 4 Kills

 

 

Tacview-20240603-163444-DCS.zip.acmi 231.02 kB · 3 descargas

AGL 50 .... MATCH 1.4 ..  Yes, working with the editor is very good, but then you saw what happens when you are on equal terms, a 120c launched at mile 10 and you lose...

Edited June 3, 2024 by rayon89

[rayon89]

hace 14 minutos, rayon89 dijo:

AGL 50 .... MATCH 1.4 ..  Yes, working with the editor is very good, but then you saw what happens when you are on equal terms, a 120c launched at mile 10 and you lose...

 

I would like you to explain to me how to get to Angels 50 in match 1.5 by playing this game... Why doesn't that happen if you don't get there with the editor...

[falcon_120]

Can you try make your shots at 30.000 at least and report back if you're getting kills or not at 10/15 nm? :)

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[Hobel]

vor 36 Minuten schrieb rayon89:

AGL 50 .... MATCH 1.4 ..  Yes, working with the editor is very good, but then you saw what happens when you are on equal terms, a 120c launched at mile 10 and you lose...

These values can also be accessed outside the editor.  Try it yourself with 35-40,000 and mach1 shots - the results are similarly good.  

 

vor 12 Minuten schrieb falcon_120:

Can you try make your shots at 30.000 at least and report back if you're getting kills or not at 10/15 nm?

This

[rayon89]

hace 4 horas, Hobel dijo:

These values can also be accessed outside the editor.  Try it yourself with 35-40,000 and mach1 shots - the results are similarly good.  

 

This

https://we.tl/t-YKhy44jNf2

[Hobel]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb rayon89:

https://we.tl/t-YKhy44jNf2

looks good, now give the missle 25-30° loft and show what happens then

[nickos86]

17 hours ago, rayon89 said:

You can try it yourself, shoot a 120C with the F18, give mile 15 to an F5E, see how many kills you get, even having everything in your favor, the missile is always lost, in addition, the fight outside visual range no longer exists. why at those distances it is better to use other types of missiles, why combat outside visual range no longer exists in this game

Hi, please note that BVR is a VERY TRICKY game. Against a really good opponent - it will be VERY hard for you to shoot him down even at 6-8 miles because he knows how to defend (energy, not flying straight at you, etc.). The BVR game require A LOT of knowledge and experience. No offence but the problem is not the missile but it's you 

I strongly suggest going to servers like growling sidewinder, getting killed MANY times, exploring the TACVIEW and learning. You'll see guys hitting each other from 20+ NM and in other cases people dodging 120C from 7 NM... All a matter of proficiency. 

The 120C ain't a 'magic' weapon that will hit it's target from 30NM no matter what. I think you'll find it's super interesting to learn how to employ it properly and fight a good BVR fight...

Just a small video showing how you can kill from ~18NM and at the same time - dodge the missile from your enemy  

 

[rayon89]

hace 1 hora, nickos86 dijo:

Hi, please note that BVR is a VERY TRICKY game. Against a really good opponent - it will be VERY hard for you to shoot him down even at 6-8 miles because he knows how to defend (energy, not flying straight at you, etc.). The BVR game require A LOT of knowledge and experience. No offence but the problem is not the missile but it's you 

I strongly suggest going to servers like growling sidewinder, getting killed MANY times, exploring the TACVIEW and learning. You'll see guys hitting each other from 20+ NM and in other cases people dodging 120C from 7 NM... All a matter of proficiency. 

The 120C ain't a 'magic' weapon that will hit it's target from 30NM no matter what. I think you'll find it's super interesting to learn how to employ it properly and fight a good BVR fight...

Just a small video showing how you can kill from ~18NM and at the same time - dodge the missile from your enemy  

 

Whenever you want, we'll meet on a server and you can show me your skills. Maybe the problem was wanting to make a missile to be able to play PvP and be on an equal footing with the Russians, why I highly doubt that a 120c missile behaves like that in reality.

[nickos86]

2 hours ago, rayon89 said:

Whenever you want, we'll meet on a server and you can show me your skills. Maybe the problem was wanting to make a missile to be able to play PvP and be on an equal footing with the Russians, why I highly doubt that a 120c missile behaves like that in reality.

I highly recommend you to watch some of growling videos on BVR (like the one I'll attach below). He's doing a really good job explaining how the tactics matter A LOT. 

You can also look for the discord and youtube videos of the TACT - you'll see how when someone experienced flying against someone less experienced - he manage to shoot him down even at 25NM+.

Don't take this personally  The implementation on the 120C of course never going to be 1:1 as the real deal... The real guidance algorithms are classified and the exact characteristics of the internal radar and electronics are classified... But per the assumption ED published in their newsletters - they took a realistic approach... So good chances the current implementation not that far from the real thing.  

Regarding your tacview, you were very slow when shooting the missile (~1.01M) for 25NM... Try accelerating to at least 1.3M-1.5M and shoot with a 20-30 deg of LOFT. Put him on the gimbel after firing and support the missile until pitbull. 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2024 by nickos86

[rayon89]

I continue thinking that a 120-C missile firing it at mile 18, an F-5, a MIG 21 or any aircraft of those characteristics, no matter how much the AI is in AS, should die, it should not matter the altitude, speed, or The good thing is that the pilot is, in real life if they shoot a 120-C missile at you at 18 miles you will most likely die.

So in versions 2.8, 2.7 the 120-c was working better than it works now, as you will see in today's patch they made some kind of fix, with this missile, I hope they solve it soon and if they want to create equality for the PVP Let them invent a missile on equal terms and that's how those of us who play PVE have fun.

[falcon_120]

I continue thinking that a 120-C missile firing it at mile 18, an F-5, a MIG 21 or any aircraft of those characteristics, no matter how much the AI is in AS, should die, it should not matter the altitude, speed, or The good thing is that the pilot is, in real life if they shoot a 120-C missile at you at 18 miles you will most likely die.
So in versions 2.8, 2.7 the 120-c was working better than it works now, as you will see in today's patch they made some kind of fix, with this missile, I hope they solve it soon and if they want to create equality for the PVP Let them invent a missile on equal terms and that's how those of us who play PVE have fun.

Sorry but you're really not listening to anythimg told to you about how real life missile work.

I repeat again a distance means zero without an associated altitude and speed. To illustrate my point further the MAR for a 120c at sea level is around 10ish miles, meaning that an F5 shot at18nm can easily turn cold and be perfectly safe if you are shooting from low altitude, there no magic around it.

You can be stubborn and keep saying that 18nm is very close, but that will not make it true. 18nm at sea level is harder for a missile than 50nm at 50.000, that is how much air density changes range.

Enviado desde mi ELE-L29 mediante Tapatalk

[Mad_Shell]

23 minutes ago, rayon89 said:

I continue thinking that a 120-C missile firing it at mile 18, an F-5, a MIG 21 or any aircraft of those characteristics, no matter how much the AI is in AS, should die, it should not matter the altitude, speed, or The good thing is that the pilot is, in real life if they shoot a 120-C missile at you at 18 miles you will most likely die.

So in versions 2.8, 2.7 the 120-c was working better than it works now, as you will see in today's patch they made some kind of fix, with this missile, I hope they solve it soon and if they want to create equality for the PVP Let them invent a missile on equal terms and that's how those of us who play PVE have fun.

Sorry, but you will need to begin to provide some proofs, because all I see is your feelings vs ED's research on that subject (including running CFD simulations). It's basic physics that an object moving that fast will lose speed very (VERY) fast at low altitude because of the air density. Check this discussion, a dude made some rough on-the-coin-of-the-table maths, and look at how big of a difference the altitude makes (https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=27373) 

Now if you won't listen to anyone so be it, but don't try to change everyone minds at how ED got it wrong when their research is pretty solid while you don't provide any proof.

Edited June 5, 2024 by Mad_Shell

[rayon89]

En 3/6/2024 a las 9:30, Hobel dijo:

  

No, no por el destello, exactamente a las 18:12 golpeas la muesca y la mantienes por un corto tiempo, el misil pierde el bloqueo por debajo de ~25 nudos Vc.

Cuando el misil está exactamente a 800 metros de ti, abandonas la muesca y aceleras de nuevo por encima de los 25 nudos. Ahora podríamos argumentar que el misil debería volver a verte, pero no lo hace y no puedo responder por qué.

 

 

 

 

Up there you have a tacview showing how it loses lock due to some mystery of nature, fired at a correct distance and height, the missile should have impacted and it didn't, like that one, there were many where the missile pitched and missed. impact, however I hope that with the new updates this will improve

[Hobel]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb rayon89:

Up there you have a tacview showing how it loses lock due to some mystery of nature, fired at a correct distance and height, the missile should have impacted and it didn't, like that one, there were many where the missile pitched and missed. impact, however I hope that with the new updates this will improve

 

The magic question is also what does the search pattern of our Aim120 look like?

here 2 possible assumptions with A the missle could simply not have seen the target, B would guarantee a higher possibility.. or a completely different method, unfortunately I don't know
In any case, the target is located in the gimbel limits and the missle knows in which area it has to search, but it still cannot find the target

 

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

6 hours ago, Mad_Shell said:

Now if you won't listen to anyone so be it, but don't try to change everyone minds at how ED got it wrong when their research is pretty solid while you don't provide any proof.

 

I for one would like to see a more detailed report on said research. We know ED did quite well determining the aerodynamic coefficients as verified by separate CFD analyses done by other members. However what is not so clear, and leaves a big question mark for many of us, is why they did what they did to the rocket motor. For a much more detailed explanation and thorough analysis on this topic see, 

Personally, it seems awfully suspicious to me that with the release of the new AIM-120 back in 2020, a rocket motor “nerf” was coupled to it. Until we get more insight into why this was done, my suspicion will remain. 

Edited June 5, 2024 by DCS FIGHTER PILOT

[ruxtmp]

The guidance and proximity fuze are the bigger issues with this and most air to air radar guided missiles in game. While I think the range can be argued most missiles seem to at least ballistically be able to fly out to expected ranges. Rayon89 any plane maybe able to dodge a missile if conditions are just right even at under 10miles. Although I agree it should be very challenging to defeat kinematically. Currently AI and most competent humans can avoid a within 10mile shot radar missile with a high likelihood of success. 

[Default774]

19 hours ago, DCS FIGHTER PILOT said:

I for one would like to see a more detailed report on said research. We know ED did quite well determining the aerodynamic coefficients as verified by separate CFD analyses done by other members. However what is not so clear, and leaves a big question mark for many of us, is why they did what they did to the rocket motor. For a much more detailed explanation and thorough analysis on this topic see,

...

Personally, it seems awfully suspicious to me that with the release of the new AIM-120 back in 2020, a rocket motor “nerf” was coupled to it. Until we get more insight into why this was done, my suspicion will remain. 

 

Relevant excerpt from the AMRAAM Dev report from 2021.

Quote

Rocket motor performance directly affects missile ballistics and range, so we decided to also revise motor data. Using known data for other reduced smoke motors with HTPB/AP propellant, exhaust nozzle dimensions, and some handbook data, we estimated the propellant characteristics. We then estimated the AMRAAM motor burn change using gas-dynamic functions and nozzle geometry, and this provided motor thrust and specific impulse. As a result, we have decreased the motor specific impulse by about 10% to meet realistic HTPB/AP propellant characteristics.

Would have loved some more detail here, but this report is 3 years old at this point, I wouldn't expect anything more at this point.

Edited June 6, 2024 by Default774

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

5 hours ago, Default774 said:

Would have loved some more detail here, but this report is 3 years old at this point, I wouldn't expect anything more at this point.

 

Oh no doubt. The only way things will change is by more separate analyses being done that contradicts them and even then. 

[rayon89]

En 3/6/2024 a las 16:35, Hobel dijo:

Hey, your Tacview is really well done, but it's also great to shoot at planes from your own faction to set an example.  With just a bit of historical knowledge and reading some pilot testimonies, an AIM-120 should be effective at a minimum of 35 miles... and they're ruining the F-18. It performs worse and worse, both in flight mode and combat."

also here your Tacview shows that you make all your Aim120 shots under 10,000 feet, one should not be surprised to have so little range...

 

and here

~50nm 4 Missles 4 Kills

 

 

Tacview-20240603-163444-DCS.zip.acmi 231.02 kB · 16 descargas

 

[Xhonas]

Hello guys. So, about the Aim120 being "easily" notched. What if PN values were changed so the missile would do a lot of lead pursuit versus a beaming target? that would create an angle offset allowing the missile to fly outside of the notch window and reacquire the target. The Aim54 and R77 behave kinda like this right now.

[Muchocracker]

On 9/14/2024 at 7:12 AM, Xhonas said:

Hello guys. So, about the Aim120 being "easily" notched. What if PN values were changed so the missile would do a lot of lead pursuit versus a beaming target? that would create an angle offset allowing the missile to fly outside of the notch window and reacquire the target. The Aim54 and R77 behave kinda like this right now.

Does not address the core problem of the seeker modelling. This should be focus'd on rather tan trying to find ways to work around it.