waiting for resolution RAZBAM Situation Post Archive (will be deleted)

[nessuno0505]

Il 9/5/2024 at 02:41, GregP ha scritto:

I've been reluctant to respond to this thread because at the end of the day, all this conjecture feels mostly pointless to me. But I've been reading the whole thread and finally decided that, as a fan who has been with the franchise since the very beginning, I thought it was worth pointing out the following, which is of course just my opinion.

I waited excitedly a long time for the release of the Strike Eagle and I sincerely hope that RAZBAM and ED work out their differences and support for the module continues into the future.  But in the event that it does not, I think people who claim that this has shaken their faith in the entire franchise are a bit silly when there's such a diversity of developers in this space. In particular, I think it's impossible to ignore the very obvious facts that:

1) RB has never done a great job with timely updates on any of their modules; 

2) Frankly the feeling that I get from many of their statements over the years is that they're often hotheaded and just simply not as professional an outfit as say, Heatblur, who are also vastly better at point #1 above.

And so my point is, in some sense I'm not surprised that this has turned out the way it has, but luckily we have other, more reliable options and over time maybe we'll see the community shift to supporting more of those kinds of developers, letting their wallets speak for them.

At the end someone said this. If RB quits DCS maybe we will loose some airplanes, and I'm sincerely sorry for those who bought them (fortunately I do not have RB modules, nevertheless I am really sad for the av-8b, to which I have always looked with interest - if only it had a manual), but I'm sure it wouldn't be a big loss and someone better - sooner or later - will do a f-15 or a harrier/av-8b, at least with more love and respect for the users.

[Hog_driver]

45 minutes ago, nessuno0505 said:

... someone better - sooner or later - will do a f-15 ...

Please, wake me up then from my cryogenic sleep!

[Ramius007]

Just a reminder that Mirage 2k is among most polished DCS modules I saw to this point, I was curious about FM and system moddeling and after trial I m sold to module, it's all top tier, F-15E is very popular, cant be broken if so many people fly it daily, with Harrier otoh i had a lot of issues, performance was terrible, tweaking graphic setting didnt help, there was plenty of weird system behaviors where manual didnt mention any, looked like a lot of bugs, and it was only 2 week (extensive) trial, so 1 module is not representative for entire company, and i m preety sure harrier issues can be solved with some work. OTOH same RB Harrier had excellent FM and really in depth systems moddeling, so i was feeling very sorry, it had those issues, without them it would be my next sale purchase

[Rainmaker]

7 hours ago, Evg85 said:

 

Do you seriously believe RAZBAM's words that EDs are not paid for their work? If this were true, we would see outraged third-party developers. But nothing like that happens.

Just think logically. ED is a serious company with a serious attitude towards their business (they take every detail of their modules very seriously). Do you really think that ED would cause reputational damage to itself by not paying money to third-party developers?

On the other hand, we have RAZBAM - a company with a frivolous attitude to its business. Almost all of their modules had and continue to have a number of errors and shortcomings that have not been eliminated for many years. And what is their trick worth involving their clients in their intrigues with ED - people who trusted them and purchased their raw and unfinished modules, counting on their integrity?

 

Based on these facts, I have no reason to trust RAZBAM

LOL. If you notice and actually used a small ounce of thought NG never denied withholding payment. Quite the contrary actually. You think RB just packed up and left for no reason?  Again….just a small, teeny weeenie…ounce of thought is all that’s required here. 
 

and you should read your second/third paragraph again. That’s DCS as a whole. If you think anyone is excluded from that list you’ve lost your mind completely in which case, my paragraph above, would be impossible for you. 

Edited May 10, 2024 by Rainmaker

[The_GhostRider]

At this point the best we can do is hope that this gets resolved and await any announcement regarding the outcome, if any. We are all passionate simmers but life is too short to get heated up over the internal dispute of two companies.

[Futurecvsh]

The best thing that can happen to this perfect community is that RAZBAN disappears and ED takes ownership of its modules and, sooner rather than later, finishes them in a PROFESSIONAL way.

[Ignition]

8 hours ago, Evg85 said:

 

Do you seriously believe RAZBAM's words that EDs are not paid for their work? If this were true, we would see outraged third-party developers. But nothing like that happens.

Just think logically. ED is a serious company with a serious attitude towards their business (they take every detail of their modules very seriously). Do you really think that ED would cause reputational damage to itself by not paying money to third-party developers?

On the other hand, we have RAZBAM - a company with a frivolous attitude to its business. Almost all of their modules had and continue to have a number of errors and shortcomings that have not been eliminated for many years. And what is their trick worth involving their clients in their intrigues with ED - people who trusted them and purchased their raw and unfinished modules, counting on their integrity?

 

Based on these facts, I have no reason to trust RAZBAM

The F-15E is a very good early access aircraft and the M2k is well polished and super complete.

I would suggest you to stop reading other peoples opinions.

There's no bad company or good company, they are just for the money. The only thing that changes is the way they transmit it to the public. We don't know what happens between 3rd parties and ED.

[Futurecvsh]

hace 10 minutos, Ignition dijo:

The F-15E is a very good early access aircraft and the M2k is well polished and super complete.

I would suggest you to stop reading other peoples opinions.

There's no bad company or good company, they are just for the money. The only thing that changes is the way they transmit it to the public. We don't know what happens between 3rd parties and ED.

A good company is one that RESPECTS its customers.

[eFirehawk]

9 hours ago, Evg85 said:

 

Do you seriously believe RAZBAM's words that EDs are not paid for their work? If this were true, we would see outraged third-party developers. But nothing like that happens.

Just think logically. ED is a serious company with a serious attitude towards their business (they take every detail of their modules very seriously). Do you really think that ED would cause reputational damage to itself by not paying money to third-party developers?

On the other hand, we have RAZBAM - a company with a frivolous attitude to its business. Almost all of their modules had and continue to have a number of errors and shortcomings that have not been eliminated for many years. And what is their trick worth involving their clients in their intrigues with ED - people who trusted them and purchased their raw and unfinished modules, counting on their integrity?

 

Based on these facts, I have no reason to trust RAZBAM

So you're suggesting that RB's whole team is straight up lying? That they took the money and ran away? Ok, interesting.

And also suggesting that ED is so serious and takes every little detail into account? Without trying to break any rules I can tell that there is a record of modules going for years without major progress and missing plenty of substantial features (like the Supercarrier) and unresolved bugs that makes modules feel abandoned (like the F-5). In that case, both ED and RB have a share of 'errors and shortcomings' and relatively raw modules on sale.

I think you need to be introduced to the fact that business is business. You don't know everything, companies don't do stuff out of the 'goodness of their hearts', and if they feel like that can do something 'interesting' and get away with it, they might as well do it (I am in no way claiming that ED did anything. I just don't know).

I for one did work for a foreign company that did not pay me and over 40 people for months. Our reality was substantially different than the PR side of things that you would probably fall for very easily it seems.

I would recommend at this point to understand that devs not getting paid for whatever reason (possibly something that they could be guilty for themselves or just victims of their own boss) is possible and that we can't cast blame on anyone here yet because we simply do not know any official detail. Best that we can do is speculate and unfortunately be a bit paranoid sometimes - we're only human after all.

Edited May 10, 2024 by eFirehawk
typo

[Evg85]

47 минут назад, eFirehawk сказал:

So you're suggesting that RB's whole team is straight up lying? That they took the money and ran away? Ok, interesting.

And also suggesting that ED is so serious and takes every little detail into account? Without trying to break any rules I can tell that there is a record of modules going for years without major progress and missing plenty of substantial features (like the Supercarrier) and unresolved bugs that makes modules feel abandoned (like the F-5). In that case, both ED and RB have a share of 'errors and shortcomings' and relatively raw modules on sale.

I think you need to be introduced to the fact that business is business. You don't know everything, companies don't do stuff out of the 'goodness of their hearts', and if they feel like that can do something 'interesting' and get away with it, they might as well do it (I am in no way claiming that ED did anything. I just don't know).

I for one did work for a foreign company that did not pay me and over 40 people for months. Our reality was substantially different than the PR side of things that you would probably fall for very easily it seems.

I would recommend at this point to understand that devs not getting paid for whatever reason (possibly something that they could be guilty for themselves or just victims of their own boss) is possible and that we can't cast blame on anyone here yet because we simply do not know any official detail. Best that we can do is speculate and unfortunately be a bit paranoid sometimes - we're only human after all.

 

I guess so. If the head of the RAZBAM company is shameless enough to involve his clients in behind-the-scenes intrigues, then why isn’t he shameless enough to simply lie to us? Ok, what if ED really doesn't pay RAZBAM? Then why does he continue to pay other developers?

1 час назад, Futurecvsh сказал:

The best thing that can happen to this perfect community is that RAZBAN disappears and ED takes ownership of its modules and, sooner rather than later, finishes them in a PROFESSIONAL way.

I am sure that RAZBAM will not continue to cooperate with DCS in any way. Their reputation among DCS fans is completely ruined. Well, who will believe them again and buy their products? Their leader understands this very well.

Edited May 10, 2024 by Evg85

[Rainmaker]

18 minutes ago, Evg85 said:

I guess so. If the head of the RAZBAM company is shameless enough to involve his clients in behind-the-scenes intrigues, then why isn’t he shameless enough to simply lie to us? Ok, what if ED really doesn't pay RAZBAM? Then why does he continue to pay other developers?

I am sure that RAZBAM will not continue to cooperate with DCS in any way. Their reputation among DCS fans is completely ruined. Well, who will believe them again and buy their products? Their leader understands this very well.

 

Every customer can speak for themselves.  I can certainly say you don’t speak for all.  You can try….but it doesnt work that way. 
 

Perhaps you should go read NG’s statement on the matter. The statment lends itself to why money is being withheld. Then right after that, ask youself the question of where IP infringement cases get decided. Is that by a single party involved?  Or maybe…just maybe…its decided in a court of law by judges that are delegated that authority.  After that, ask yourself if that court case has ever happened yet and whether someone can be found guilty without such trial. Perhaps you have a different take on it…perhaps not. Doesn't really matter. 

[freehand]

7 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

Every customer can speak for themselves.  I can certainly say you don’t speak for all.  You can try….but it doesnt work that way. 
 

Perhaps you should go read NG’s statement on the matter. The statment lends itself to why money is being withheld. Then right after that, ask youself the question of where IP infringement cases get decided. Is that by a single party involved?  Or maybe…just maybe…its decided in a court of law by judges that are delegated that authority.  After that, ask yourself if that court case has ever happened yet and whether someone can be found guilty without such trial. Perhaps you have a different take on it…perhaps not. Doesn't really matter. 

Who is NG ?

[Evg85]

3 минуты назад, Rainmaker сказал:

Every customer can speak for themselves.  I can certainly say you don’t speak for all.  You can try….but it doesnt work that way. 
 

Perhaps you should go read NG’s statement on the matter. The statment lends itself to why money is being withheld. Then right after that, ask youself the question of where IP infringement cases get decided. Is that by a single party involved?  Or maybe…just maybe…its decided in a court of law by judges that are delegated that authority.  After that, ask yourself if that court case has ever happened yet and whether someone can be found guilty without such trial. Perhaps you have a different take on it…perhaps not. Doesn't really matter. 

Yes, but my post got a lot of likes from other members of this forum. This suggests that many agree with my opinion.

 

Of course, I don’t know all the nuances. However, the facts I cited above allow us to draw certain conclusions about the company. In any case, the company's clients are not lawyers, but ordinary people. It is the customers who decide the fate of the company. Once customer trust is lost, no court can ever regain it.

[Rainmaker]

4 minutes ago, Evg85 said:

Yes, but my post got a lot of likes from other members of this forum. This suggests that many agree with my opinion.

 

Of course, I don’t know all the nuances. However, the facts I cited above allow us to draw certain conclusions about the company. In any case, the company's clients are not lawyers, but ordinary people. It is the customers who decide the fate of the company. Once customer trust is lost, no court can ever regain it.

Okay.  Your point is?  You somehow think that speaks of the majority.  You must be really young.  

You said ‘I don’t know all the nuances’. Yet, then follow up and use the words ‘facts’. Don’t think that means what you think it means.  

Edited May 10, 2024 by Rainmaker

[Rainmaker]

5 minutes ago, freehand said:

Who is NG ?

Nick Grey

[Futurecvsh]

hace 7 minutos, Evg85 dijo:

Yes, but my post got a lot of likes from other members of this forum. This suggests that many agree with my opinion.

 

Of course, I don’t know all the nuances. However, the facts I cited above allow us to draw certain conclusions about the company. In any case, the company's clients are not lawyers, but ordinary people. It is the customers who decide the fate of the company. Once customer trust is lost, no court can ever regain it.

I completely agree with you friend!

The customer's trust is the most valid, and internal disputes between companies are resolved judicially in the event of a disagreement or breach of contract.

What you can't do is use your clients as hostages!!!

In a way I'm glad this happened because sooner or later it was going to happen, I hope they don't come back, because their professionalism as a company is zero.

 

This is like buying a new car from a company and when it breaks down or something doesn't work they tell you that they are not going to fix anything because they don't want to and because there are problems with the suppliers etc... what are you going to think about that company as a customer? ? nothing good

[Rainmaker]

1 minute ago, Futurecvsh said:

I completely agree with you friend!

The customer's trust is the most valid, and internal disputes between companies are resolved judicially in the event of a disagreement or breach of contract.

What you can't do is use your clients as hostages!!!

In a way I'm glad this happened because sooner or later it was going to happen, I hope they don't come back, because their professionalism as a company is zero.

If you can’t pay your employees because they are not getting paid for work they already accomplished and the sales that are being generated and not being compensated for either….and you can’t continue to work for free either.  So, there’s that.  

[Futurecvsh]

hace 3 minutos, Rainmaker dijo:

If you can’t pay your employees because they are not getting paid for work they already accomplished and the sales that are being generated and not being compensated for either….and you can’t continue to work for free either.  So, there’s that.  

resolve the problems judicially, not with the clients, besides you don't know what has been done with that money or if it has been poorly managed and someone has kept it or anything, as a company it resolves the problems legally and judicially, that's what the contracts, plus RAZBAN is Latin American, and I assure you that where it lives, and what it charges for its products, is 3 months' salary per module unit!

[Evg85]

7 минут назад, Rainmaker сказал:

Okay.  Your point is?  You somehow think that speaks of the majority.

Perhaps I'm still too young and naive . But could you tell me how else I can verify the popularity of a post on social networks, if not by the number of likes and other reactions?

[Rainmaker]

14 minutes ago, Futurecvsh said:

resolve the problems judicially, not with the clients, besides you don't know what has been done with that money or if it has been poorly managed and someone has kept it or anything, as a company it resolves the problems legally and judicially, that's what the contracts, plus RAZBAN is Latin American, and I assure you that where it lives, and what it charges for its products, is 3 months' salary per module unit!

Well, in all those cases, you are making a ton of assumptions…which you are free to do…but that doesn’t make it reality. 
 

And again, NG all but stated it was withheld on a basis of another claim…which has not been legally determined by a court.  So, just ask yourself if that’s a fair thing to do and then expect continued support. If you think it is, well then your morals are different than mine. 

12 minutes ago, Evg85 said:

Perhaps I'm still too young and naive . But could you tell me how else I can verify the popularity of a post on social networks, if not by the number of likes and other reactions?

You speak for yourself and not others….or claim that others feel this way or that.  They can speak for themselves if they wish. 

Edited May 10, 2024 by Rainmaker

[unknown]

10 minutes ago, Rainmaker said:

And again, NG all but stated it was withheld on a basis of another claim…which has not been legally determined by a court.  So, just ask yourself if that’s a fair thing to do and then expect continued support. If you think it is, well then your morals are different than mine. 

But if Razbam is without blame why didn't they just sue ED for breaking the contract and withholding their money? Problem solved between companies withold holding your customers as hostages and starting a sh1t show online. But they didn't ,Ron cried on social media and blamed ED. If Razbam didn't fucked up in the first place there would be no need for the second - the public - fuckup we all are involved in. I can't overlook that there must be a reason for ED to withhold the payment in the first place and i'm pretty sure the reason is not the lack of drama on the forums/social media....but something more serious. So why should i overlook that fact and just look on the resulting consequence - Razbam not getting payed? That makes no sense for me.

Edited May 10, 2024 by unknown

[Evg85]

9 минут назад, Rainmaker сказал:

Well, in all those cases, you are making a ton of assumptions…which you are free to do…but that doesn’t make it reality. 

 

I guess you think you know more about reality than I do? But where do you get such confidence?

11 минут назад, Rainmaker сказал:

They can speak for themselves if they wish. 

 

Or they may not speak if they are too lazy, but simply support a post with which they agree

[Rainmaker]

10 minutes ago, unknown said:

But if Razbam is without blame why didn't they just sue ED for breaking the contract and withholding their money? Problem solved between companies withold holding your customers as hostages and starting a sh1t show online. But they didn't ,Ron cried on social media and blamed ED. If Razbam didn't fucked up in the first place there would be no need for the second - the public - fuckup we all are involved in. I can't overlook that there must be a reason for ED to withhold the payment in the first place and i'm pretty sure the reason is not the lack of drama on the forums/social media....but something more serious.

 Okay.  Let me counter. Why is ED withholding money and they didn’t file suite for the IP infringement?  And if you think that is a week long process…or even six months…then you are grossly mistaken on how long, drawn out, and expensive court cases are. 

Again, these things arent the decision of ‘I believe’.  They are decided in court. Until then, making judgement and taking courses of action to penalize someone before that is illegal in itself. 

8 minutes ago, Evg85 said:

 

I guess you think you know more about reality than I do? But where do you get such confidence?

 

Or they may not speak if they are too lazy, but simply support a post with which they agree

So I just went and looked. 9 likes and trophy. Congratulations. 10 folks speak for the majority. I’m glad you are that involved in social media gratification that you revolve around it.  Good luck with that getting you through people asking for money to pay the bills. 
 

And just to blow easy holes in those assumptions, since you asked, RB employees folks from around the world. US, France, Europe, etc. the fact that their owner resides in SA or wherever shows you how little people understand about business in general. 

Edited May 10, 2024 by Rainmaker

[Rainmaker]

I also see a whole lot of me, me, me in here. ‘I got screwed’.  ‘They did this to me’, etc. ‘Poor me’, etc. It also speaks for how little people understand about actually taking care of people and only making things about them. 

[Evg85]

6 минут назад, Rainmaker сказал:

So I just went and looked. 9 likes and trophy. Congratulations. 10 folks speak for the majority. I’m glad you are that involved in social media gratification that you revolve around it.  Good luck with that getting you through people asking for money to pay the bills. 

And yet, that's a much higher number of reactions that your posts received, isn't it?

In any case, it would be foolish to deny that RAZBAM never had a high reputation among fans, even before the scandal between them and ED. All these MIG-19s, AV-8s and a map of the South Atlantic. Of course, there are other companies that do not pay enough attention to their modules, but at least they do not drag their customers into stupid intrigues.

4 минуты назад, Rainmaker сказал:

I also see a whole lot of me, me, me in here. ‘I got screwed’.  ‘They did this to me’, etc. ‘Poor me’, etc. It also speaks for how little people understand about actually taking care of people and only making things about them. 

And in your opinion, RAZBAM cared about people, didn’t it?.  Your posts make me laugh more and more