Feedback for training missions

[saltyleon]

Hi,

I would like to provide some feedback for the the training missions that are available with the initial release of the F-4E.

 

Dive-Toss Bombing & Maverick Mission
Both missions are explaining the upcoming task very well, are short and fun to play. I really enjoyed learning these delivery modes that way.

 

Landing Mission
In the beginning of the mission its a bit unclear of what is about to happen in this mission. There is alot of preparation within Task 1 but I am missing any guidance where to fly to and at which height. After completion of task 1 there is no further guidance for the mission at all. I played it several times. I most likely missed the trigger to start task 2 but without instructions I have no idea what to do. If I land the plane on my own, the instructor comes up with some additional suggestions but that's all. I never saw him speaking about tasks 2-4.

 

WSO & Radar mission 

This is the second mission that - in my view - needs improvements. After the introduction of the two gain knobs the player is tasked to identify helicopters and planes from 3 groups at different heights and at different distances. All this happens while the plane is in "active pause". This is very hard if you have no experience with this type of radar and all the ground clutter. In a training mission like that I would expect for example an radar image that shows how an appropriate gain setting should look like and what identifies as a target despite all the remaining ground clutter. Because of the active pause, nothing moves and I have no idea what I am looking for.

 

Maybe I did something wrong, but as these are missions, especially designed to learn a new plane and its features ... there should be more explanations and guidance in these instances.

 

Last words: The F-4E is a wonderful jet. I really enjoy every minute flying it.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

58 minutes ago, saltyleon said:

Landing Mission
In the beginning of the mission its a bit unclear of what is about to happen in this mission. There is alot of preparation within Task 1 but I am missing any guidance where to fly to and at which height. After completion of task 1 there is no further guidance for the mission at all. I played it several times. I most likely missed the trigger to start task 2 but without instructions I have no idea what to do. If I land the plane on my own, the instructor comes up with some additional suggestions but that's all. I never saw him speaking about tasks 2-4.

I had the same problem. The instructor said to change the altimeter below transition altitude after which I started descending (assuming that's what he wanted me to do) and likely missed the next trigger since you're supposed to overfly the airbase at angels 22.
The mission starts with TAC navigation active, but I switched to NAV COMP and flew back to WP7, after which the next step triggered.

Edited May 29, 2024 by Raven (Elysian Angel)
typo

[Art-J]

Landing mission follows a procedure shown at the beginning of it on a screenshot from the manual (instrument / penetration descent from high altitude, without overhead pattern) so you more or less know what to expect. As long as you follow TACAN and altitude instructions all triggers should work OK.

I admit, however, that sometimes there's a lot things going on in quick succession and it's easy to miss crucial bit of info. On my first attempt I missed the approach because I didn't know If I was supposed to go straight in or continue level towards a pattern (forgot there should be no pattern at all). All of it despite using pause key often. Things seemed a bit more rushed compared to cold start, taxi and takeoff missions. 

Haven't even tried remaining ones as I'm still practicing just flying around properly.

[Freakmeister51]

On 5/29/2024 at 12:27 PM, saltyleon said:

Hi,

I would like to provide some feedback for the the training missions that are available with the initial release of the F-4E.

 

Dive-Toss Bombing & Maverick Mission
Both missions are explaining the upcoming task very well, are short and fun to play. I really enjoyed learning these delivery modes that way.

 

Landing Mission
In the beginning of the mission its a bit unclear of what is about to happen in this mission. There is alot of preparation within Task 1 but I am missing any guidance where to fly to and at which height. After completion of task 1 there is no further guidance for the mission at all. I played it several times. I most likely missed the trigger to start task 2 but without instructions I have no idea what to do. If I land the plane on my own, the instructor comes up with some additional suggestions but that's all. I never saw him speaking about tasks 2-4.

 

WSO & Radar mission 

This is the second mission that - in my view - needs improvements. After the introduction of the two gain knobs the player is tasked to identify helicopters and planes from 3 groups at different heights and at different distances. All this happens while the plane is in "active pause". This is very hard if you have no experience with this type of radar and all the ground clutter. In a training mission like that I would expect for example an radar image that shows how an appropriate gain setting should look like and what identifies as a target despite all the remaining ground clutter. Because of the active pause, nothing moves and I have no idea what I am looking for.

 

Maybe I did something wrong, but as these are missions, especially designed to learn a new plane and its features ... there should be more explanations and guidance in these instances.

 

Last words: The F-4E is a wonderful jet. I really enjoy every minute flying it.

I agree with you about the radar mission. I went through it myself. I didn’t understand a word of it. The bit about adjusting the setting to bring targets into view, I managed to bring one set onto view but couldn’t get a lock. I’m hoping for another video to get more information.

[aaronwhite]

On 5/29/2024 at 1:45 PM, Art-J said:

Landing mission follows a procedure shown at the beginning of it on a screenshot from the manual (instrument / penetration descent from high altitude, without overhead pattern) so you more or less know what to expect. As long as you follow TACAN and altitude instructions all triggers should work OK.

I admit, however, that sometimes there's a lot things going on in quick succession and it's easy to miss crucial bit of info. On my first attempt I missed the approach because I didn't know If I was supposed to go straight in or continue level towards a pattern (forgot there should be no pattern at all). All of it despite using pause key often. Things seemed a bit more rushed compared to cold start, taxi and takeoff missions. 

Haven't even tried remaining ones as I'm still practicing just flying around properly.

I wonder if those would be better with supplementary videos on Youtube that you could watch beforehand, just so you get a bit of a walkthrough of the entire landing process explained and shown to you, before you jump into the cockpit and try it yourself. 

[Art-J]

^ Not a bad idea. When I played the landing training mission for the first time I hoped someone from community would post it on youtube as well, as it often happens with other modules, but looks like Phantom is just a bit too new...

... not to mention noticeable and inevitable gaming mentality amongst content creators with everybody showing how to get the plane in the air and activate various boom sticks but nobody (except Reflected) giving a F about going back to base and landing their new toy on the ground in one piece.

Edited May 31, 2024 by Art-J

[Chops]

Tutorial 1 - Cold Start

Jester menu and Jester audio are intermittent.  For example - When asking Jester to connect external power, the menu stays open after clicking on connect and Jester does not respond.  I had to use F2 view to see if external power was connected, which it was.  Sometimes the Jester menu stays open after clicking on a command and other times it closes.

Step 11f - no response from Jester when asking to stop airflow.

Task 4 - Engine Start procedure completed, however it says to press spacebar to perform the Engine Start Checklist, which we obviously just completed. The tutorial gets stuck here and will not advance when pressing spacebar.  After pressing spacebar a few times DCS crashed.

 

Edited May 31, 2024 by Chops

[Rudel_chw]

19 minutes ago, Chops said:

Tutorial 1 - Cold Start

Jester menu and Jester audio are intermittent.  For example - When asking Jester to connect external power, the menu stays open after clicking on connect and Jester does not respond.  I had to use F2 view to see if external power was connected, which it was.  Sometimes the Jester menu stays open after clicking on a command and other times it closes.

Step 11f - no response from Jester when asking to stop airflow.

 

Jester and the Ground Crew, communicates with the pilot (you) using the intercom, which at start is unpowered. Switch either Engine Master switch to ON to enable battery power, do that before asking Jester or Ground crew and then you will find that you can now hear their responses.

[saltyleon]

Am 29.5.2024 um 20:45 schrieb Art-J:

Landing mission follows a procedure shown at the beginning of it on a screenshot from the manual (instrument / penetration descent from high altitude, without overhead pattern) so you more or less know what to expect. As long as you follow TACAN and altitude instructions all triggers should work OK.

Maybe ... but for a training mission I would've expected a direct approach OR some guidance, such as commands to fly to the airport, turn 180°, dive down ... . At least for me ( I play DCS for about 12 months now ) this is not the usual approach. I am familiar with a direct approach as well as the overhead break. This one was completely new and unusal for me.

Edited June 1, 2024 by saltyleon

[Chops]

Dive Toss Tutorial -

"Of course a release advance to shift the pattern can also be put in"   I have no idea what this means.

When pulling up the bombing table the Drag Coefficient is not shown and the Tell Jester button does not work.

Also, is there any way to increase the font on the Task Description pages shown during the tutorial?  Some of the text is difficult to read.

I agree with Salty, the Landing Tutorial definitely needs some work.

Edited June 4, 2024 by Chops

[Chops]

Jester still does not reply when asked to connect external power.  The canopy is open and the power cart is nearby so why doesn't he respond?  He is obviously within a distance where he can hear voice commands.  I thought a lot of work was done on Jester according to the latest patch notes, however, I am still seeing issues with him.

Edited October 15, 2024 by Chops

[MAXsenna]

13 minutes ago, Chops said:

Jester still does not reply when asked to connect external power. 

The crew chief you mean? You don't ask Jester to do it, but the ground crew. 

[Zabuzard]

4 hours ago, Chops said:

Jester still does not reply when asked to connect external power.  The canopy is open and the power cart is nearby so why doesn't he respond?  He is obviously within a distance where he can hear voice commands.  I thought a lot of work was done on Jester according to the latest patch notes, however, I am still seeing issues with him.

The Crew Chief talks to you through headphones connected in-parallel to the WSO audio channel. Meaning that your plane must have power, your intercom must be activated, the WSO must be on hot-mic and shut up to not block the channel. Otherwise no one will be able to hear the Crew Chief talking. When that is the case, the Crew Chief will instead communicate through Hand Signals to you (which you cant see because there is no representation of the guy walking around (yet)). You also notice that by the name of the Crew Chief menu in the Jester Wheel, which says "Crew Chief (Hand Signals)".

Edited October 15, 2024 by Zabuzard

[Rudel_chw]

5 hours ago, Chops said:

why doesn't he respond?

Switch either Engine Master switch to ON to enable battery power, do that before asking Jester or Ground crew and then you will find that you can now hear their responses.

[TOViper]

On 5/31/2024 at 6:12 PM, Chops said:

Tutorial 1 - Cold Start

Jester menu and Jester audio are intermittent.  For example - When asking Jester to connect external power, the menu stays open after clicking on connect and Jester does not respond.  I had to use F2 view to see if external power was connected, which it was.  Sometimes the Jester menu stays open after clicking on a command and other times it closes.

Step 11f - no response from Jester when asking to stop airflow.

Task 4 - Engine Start procedure completed, however it says to press spacebar to perform the Engine Start Checklist, which we obviously just completed. The tutorial gets stuck here and will not advance when pressing spacebar.  After pressing spacebar a few times DCS crashed.

Hello Chops,

The first entry sounds like a technical issue; did this problem go away in the meantime?

The second entry is not an issue, the crew chief simply doesn't respond to this command (note: Crew chief <> Jester!).

Regarding the third entry: A procedure is something different than a checklist. Often - also in reality - people mix up these terms. A procedure is more like a receipt what to do and how to do, and includes many system checks that are not super important for flight safety. A checklist exists in order to finally make sure that all really important items have been accomplished, because they ARE really important. If you miss one of these (or ignore what the checklist tells you), you most probably rush into problems, ranging from smaller problems up to flight safety relevant issues.

Hope this helps you a bit.

On 6/2/2024 at 1:23 AM, saltyleon said:

Maybe ... but for a training mission I would've expected a direct approach OR some guidance, such as commands to fly to the airport, turn 180°, dive down ... . At least for me ( I play DCS for about 12 months now ) this is not the usual approach. I am familiar with a direct approach as well as the overhead break. This one was completely new and unusal for me.

 

Hey saltyleon, I am just curious, have you phinally managed to fly that lesson with success?

Edited October 17, 2024 by TOViper

[Chops]

The training mission for Cold Start, won't advance past step 4C during engine start.   Please see the attached video below.

2024-10-17 07-41-48.mkv

[TOViper]

Hello Chops, watching your video, obviously your real throttle is not pulling back the simulation throttle to IDLE, it still stays too far forward:

If I just turn my head (no shift), and look down to the throttle lever in the cockpit, the IDLE position should look like this:

Edited October 17, 2024 by TOViper

[Chops]

I am using a Virpil VPC MongoosT-50CM3 Throttle.   I have had a very difficult time getting the Throttle to recognize idle/cutoff and afterburner.  I thought I finally had it set correctly, but apparently not.   I will go back an try to adjust my settings in the Virpil Software.

 

[TOViper]

Yup, good luck mate!

[Chops]

Here is a screenshot of how the in-game throttles look when my left throttle is in cutoff and my right throttle is at idle.   Is this what you guys are seeing with your setups?

[MAXsenna]

3 hours ago, Chops said:

Here is a screenshot of how the in-game throttles look when my left throttle is in cutoff and my right throttle is at idle.   Is this what you guys are seeing with your setups?

No. I have the Warthog, and it works perfectly. Not sure how the Virpil works. But I have bound my Warthog levers to the special for joystick IDLE/CUTOFF, ON/ELSE OFF special for joystick category, or whatever it's called. Don't remember if I've set any after burner tuning in the Special Settings. Have you set your throttle levers to sliders in the axis tuning? 

Could you post some screenshots of your settings? I'll see if I can post mine later.

Cheers! 

[Chops]

9 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

No. I have the Warthog, and it works perfectly. Not sure how the Virpil works. But I have bound my Warthog levers to the special for joystick IDLE/CUTOFF, ON/ELSE OFF special for joystick category, or whatever it's called. Don't remember if I've set any after burner tuning in the Special Settings. Have you set your throttle levers to sliders in the axis tuning? 

Could you post some screenshots of your settings? I'll see if I can post mine later.

Here are my settings -

 

[MAXsenna]

null@Chops Crap! My files limit is reach.

I did it a little different than I remembered. But it seems correct what you have done for the keybinds.
 

In the axis view in your last picture, click axis tune, and make sure you have ticked off "slider".

Edited October 18, 2024 by MAXsenna

[Chops]

Both throttles are set to Slider, but it is not making any difference as far as I can tell.

[MAXsenna]

9 hours ago, Chops said:

Both throttles are set to Slider, but it is not making any difference as far as I can tell.

Do you your throttle have a physical switch that gets pressed when in cutoff like tbe Warthog? I'm starting to feel that it has something to do with your setup in VPC app since you're the first to have issues. You have defined some virtual buttons there right? Seems overly complicated to be honest.