Force feedback Joystick from Moza

[rapid]

SimHanger has a quick test with Microsoft Flight Simulator 

 

 

[Hammer1-1]

I have kind of an inappropriate question for this thread...but still appropriate for the most part..

who restarted the force feedback race? t just feels like it came out of nowhere in the last year or so with Brunners offering..

[Aapje]

I think that the rather good sales for the Rhino are what set things off.

[propeler]

It's not out of nowhere. Several People started reviving it already  several years ago. And it was obvious seeing how ffb evolves in simracing that ffb in flight sims is on the go. https://forum.dcs.world/topic/246873-honey-i-developed-ffb-joystick-diy/?do=findComment&comment=247782 a lot of thingth started there

Edited September 27, 2024 by propeler

[LucShep]

1 hour ago, Hammer1-1 said:

I have kind of an inappropriate question for this thread...but still appropriate for the most part..

who restarted the force feedback race? t just feels like it came out of nowhere in the last year or so with Brunners offering..

IIRC, there were two companies holding patents on force feedback joysticks, Microsoft and Immersion Systems, and this last one had exorbitant licensing fees, which discouraged manufacturers to pursue the (re)adventure in this specific market.
Thankfully these patents have expired, and we're now seeing the initial steps to what may be a small flood of force feedback options in the coming years.

 I'd be all in, not for these but for a more affordable model, a-la "VKB Gladiator FFB" (.....come on VKB!!! @AeroGator). 

Edited September 28, 2024 by LucShep

[Deezle]

6 hours ago, Stellatny45 said:

Looks like absence of motor temp telemetry is part of the Moza pricing advantage.

Just because we can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

4 hours ago, petsild said:

How is the force trimmer, does it work natively for heli?

Yes it works. There's a bug in the software at the moment where using spring force on the base itself will fight the trimmed position but it's not a big deal to turn that off, I believe that will be fixed soon.

[Scott-S6]

23 hours ago, freehand said:

lol what are you talking about " Either they're clueless or it's a problem and they've been told not to mention it if they want to keep getting their free stuff"

Read the above by Deezle.

Seems pretty obvious. Overheating is a known issue with FFB bases. So if reviewers aren't taking about it they're either insufficiently knowledgeable to be reviewing them or they're being told not to talk about it in order to continue to receive early access (and if you think that doesn't happen then you're delusional).

As for people that have bought it saying the issue somehow miraculously does not exist at all - clearly the first category. It's not possible that it cannot overheat without substantial heat dissipation and the cool case suggests the opposite.

Edited September 28, 2024 by Scott-S6

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

I posted the question of heat over Moza Discord, nobody admits feeling any heat. Either somebody need to run a test, or I need to find a unit to see myself.

[NAM]

7 hours ago, propeler said:

It's not out of nowhere. Several People started reviving it already  several years ago. And it was obvious seeing how ffb evolves in simracing that ffb in flight sims is on the go. https://forum.dcs.world/topic/246873-honey-i-developed-ffb-joystick-diy/?do=findComment&comment=247782 a lot of thingth started there

 

I don't think we getting ffb from Moza and Winwing without you (ffbeast) and Walmis (vpforce).

You started honey-i-developed-ffb in il2 and dcs forum in 2020 and Walmis few weeks later with the rihno

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

I posted the question of heat over Moza Discord, nobody admits feeling any heat. Either somebody need to run a test, or I need to find a unit to see myself.

As I said above, you can see from the pictures (from Jabbers Video) that the motors are not thermally connected to the base in any meaningful way. They are surrounded by a nice isolating cushion of air that doesn’t move. When the case starts to warm up in a meaningful way, the motors will already be heat soaked.

I don’t think the Moza will actually overheat. I assume it will throttle down the Amps when a threshold temp is reached, just like the others.

For most cases, like casually flying around in MSFS or flying Helicopters in DCS. Heat won’t be a problem most likely. The rubber hits the road when you start dogfighting in DCS e.g….. that‘s when FFB devices really start pulling power from the PSU. Power that is almost completely converted into heat.

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

I posted the question of heat over Moza Discord, nobody admits feeling any heat. Either somebody need to run a test, or I need to find a unit to see myself.

 Buyers Bias. Who wants to spend 500 bucks and immediately start poking for issues. (That may not even affect them)

Give it a bit more time. Eventually the pros and cons will be reported by actual users.

[freehand]

2 hours ago, Scott-S6 said:

Seems pretty obvious. Overheating is a known issue with FFB bases. So if reviewers aren't taking about it they're either insufficiently knowledgeable to be reviewing them or they're being told not to talk about it in order to continue to receive early access (and if you think that doesn't happen then you're delusional).

As for people that have bought it saying the issue somehow miraculously does not exist at all - clearly the first category. It's not possible that it cannot overheat without substantial heat dissipation and the cool case suggests the opposite.

 

So how do you want some one to reply ? who owns one.

As for your comment (and if you think that doesn't happen then you're delusional) not sure why your trying to tech people to suck eggs.

Edited September 28, 2024 by freehand

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

37 minutes ago, Hiob said:

For most cases, like casually flying around in MSFS or flying Helicopters in DCS. Heat won’t be a problem most likely. The rubber hits the road when you start dogfighting in DCS e.g….. that‘s when FFB devices really start pulling power from the PSU. Power that is almost completely converted into heat.

So, that's why I need to find a unit to find out. I am of a curious mind, as you see some of my (actually most watched) videos are about test and compare.  I too do not actively looking for flaws, but if I come across one, I will not ignore it.

One post claims after 2 hours of "work out". The good thing is, flying in VR rather normally don't have sessions more than 2 hours. Moza may overheat, it is likely, but it is not a major concern unless it does take really some time to get to that point.

[propeler]

1 hour ago, NAM said:

I don't think we getting ffb from Moza and Winwing without you (ffbeast) and Walmis (vpforce).

 

I think we get it in any case sooner or later. Moza is a company that have everything to make it and it is obvious decision for company which makes FFB equipment to enter the market of FFB joysticks. I think many companies already have same thoughts for years, just their managers decided "not a time yet" because of risks involved in RND and not ready market yet. 

 

[propeler]

1 hour ago, NAM said:

You started honey-i-developed-ffb in il2 and dcs forum in 2020 and Walmis few weeks later with the rihno

Walmis already had it's device before, topic just resurrected it with new ideas.

And there was a topic with some china FFB device that time as well. I do not know why t disappeared. So I would not underestimate interest of other companies in making FFB. I'm 99% sure this idea come into the mind to a lot of people. This idea was just "in the air"  but there for years.

 

Edited September 28, 2024 by propeler

[Aapje]

10 hours ago, LucShep said:

[Immersion] had exorbitant licensing fees, which discouraged manufacturers to pursue the (re)adventure in this specific market.

You are just repeating rumors that make no sense and that are contradicted by actual facts.

Firstly, this company makes money by licensing their patents. They earn no money if they ask too much for the licenses, and people don't make FFB products. Secondly, we know that for flight sim FFB in the past, and for racing FFB more recently, they've licenses out their patents to relatively cheap products, which means that they can't have asked for that much, or those products couldn't have been this cheap.

Everything points to flight simming losing a lot of popularity until Covid and the new MSFS changed this around & there simply being very little investments into hardware. Some small companies that we all know and love kept innovation, but in a risk-averse and very evolutionary way, which makes sense, given their size and the state of the market at the time. The Rhino showed that the market was there and did a lot of the R&D, so it reduced the risks, while the grown market means that it is a good time to release something new.

[Aapje]

1 hour ago, Hiob said:

 Buyers Bias. Who wants to spend 500 bucks and immediately start poking for issues. (That may not even affect them)

If the overheating happens as quickly as people claim should happen, then shouldn't we get reports of the overheating protection triggering just when dogfighting with warbirds or such? Surely some DCS players who got the base did some warbird fighting?

 

[Aapje]

1 hour ago, propeler said:

I think we get it in any case sooner or later. Moza is a company that have everything to make it and it is obvious decision for company which makes FFB equipment to enter the market of FFB joysticks. I think many companies already have same thoughts for years, just their managers decided "not a time yet" because of risks involved in RND and not ready market yet. 

I think that you overestimate how creative and risk-taking companies are. You typically see that companies are much more likely to copy already successful competitors rather than innovate. I think that Moza was unlikely to have thought of this if you hadn't come around with the Rhino.

Especially since they are Chinese, whose culture is not exactly supportive of risk-taking and thinking outside of the box.

[Hiob]

6 minutes ago, Aapje said:

If the overheating happens as quickly as people claim should happen, then shouldn't we get reports of the overheating protection triggering just when dogfighting with warbirds or such? Surely some DCS players who got the base did some warbird fighting?

 

Who claims it should happen quickly per se? It depends on the actual amps drawn. Which depends on the settings and force applied. See, with the Rhino software you get very detailed reporting on the electrical side of things (amps/voltage per motor and for the PSU) and the temperature (that is for the motor driver actually, not the motor). Having done extensive stress tests with the rhino and that kind of telemetry, I have a pretty clear picture about the energy/heat involved and how fast it can build up, given the right circumstances.

That‘s why I said, that in a lot of usual use-cases the heat will build up won’t be a practical issue most likely.

However, apart from the unknown efficiency of the motors (which can’t be more than 5% better than any other electric motor if we are VERY generous. But most likely is zero), everything regarding cooling is at a disadvantage for the Moza by obvious design. There are no vents for air exchange whatsoever, there is no active cooling and the motors aren’t thermally connected to the case.

So it is reasonable to assume that it can‘t do better regarding temperatures than the Rhino or FFBeast, no?

Also the amp-throtteling isn‘t on/off but gradual (if it is done in similar fashion to the other devices). So casual users might not even notice it that much.

[Aapje]

Sure, but if no one notices in real use cases, then it is a good enough design, right?

[propeler]

2 hours ago, Aapje said:

I think that Moza was unlikely to have thought of this if you hadn't come around with the Rhino.

They copied Brunner not Rhino

[propeler]

2 hours ago, Hiob said:

However, apart from the unknown efficiency of the motors

There is common graph of motor efficiency (form is true for 99% of motors, actual numbers could be different)
 

As in joystick we use motor always in mode closer to the left border of the graph, no matter how efficient motor is on nominal RPMs in stall mode 99% of current goes into heat.

[Aapje]

1 hour ago, propeler said:

They copied Brunner not Rhino

Ok, but I don't think they would have considered making one if only the Brunner had existed.

[Hammer1-1]

Heres to hoping that walmis has a patent for his stuff...

[propeler]

22 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

Heres to hoping that walmis has a patent for his stuff...

You do not understand how patent works. It is not possible to patent FFB second time as it was patented once and it is already in public domain.