Force feedback Joystick from Moza

[Ulukaii]

Received my Moza FFB base a few days ago and I am very unhappy with the product. Before returning, a few questions. 

1. Around the center, there is a "no force zone" of a few cm in any direction. Feels super cheap.
2. Pitching up, at around 1/3 of the travel, there is a noticeable hardware detent. Is my stick defective? I tried this in many different profiles (F-18, F-16) and it is always the same, so it feels hardware related. See Video attached!
3. When working "against the force", beyond a certain point, it feels as if the stick is just "giving up" and reducing forces again. Is this normal?
4. Sometimes the stick starts vibrating / moving even though there is no game going on. Is this normal? Looks VERY defective to me. 

 

IMG_3664.mov

Edited November 25, 2024 by Ulukaii

[Panzerlang]

2 hours ago, Ulukaii said:

Received my Moza FFB base a few days ago and I am very unhappy with the product. Before returning, a few questions. 

1. Around the center, there is a "no force zone" of a few cm in any direction. Feels super cheap.
2. Pitching up, at around 1/3 of the travel, there is a noticeable hardware detent. Is my stick defective? I tried this in many different profiles (F-18, F-16) and it is always the same, so it feels hardware related. See Video attached!
3. When working "against the force", beyond a certain point, it feels as if the stick is just "giving up" and reducing forces again. Is this normal?
4. Sometimes the stick starts vibrating / moving even though there is no game going on. Is this normal? Looks VERY defective to me. 

 

IMG_3664.mov 2.88 MB · 5 downloads

No, none of that is right. The only time the stick should be in any way 'floppy' is parked on the ground or at the top of a vertical climb and static in the air. But is it hardware or software or user-error? Best advice, engage with their support and see if they can provide a solution before giving up.

[sircornelius]

Hi guys, I found this video, and it's really good and very complete!

 

[Aapje]

Despite being in Spanish, there are English subtitles. The most interesting part to me was the comparison to the Rhino (is this the first person to have both?), but even more that he's talked to Winwing and they feel that their upcoming offering will bury the competition.

[Panzerlang]

Still no heat test unfortunately.

[Stellatny45]

On 11/26/2024 at 9:15 AM, Aapje said:

he's talked to Winwing and they feel that their upcoming offering will bury the competition.

What else would Winwing be expected to say? Like Moza ffb and Pimax VR they need to discourage their audience from buying currently available offerings.

[Aapje]

2 hours ago, Stellatny45 said:

What else would Winwing be expected to say?

This is a bit different since it is not a public statement per se, but seems to be more of an unofficial statement by an employee. Of course, employees still tend to overhype their own products a bit, but if companies exaggerate too much to reviewers, they tend to get poor reviews.

And the price and power they published are both exceptional, so if they make good on that, then the hardware proposition is probably quite good. I'm more worried about the software side.

[engines]

Has anyone had any luck finding a configuration that works with the Harrier?  I'm struggling to find settings that give the correct trim and stab/alt hold behaviour.

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

Nope, I am using the F-4 profile but yet to try the trim behaviour. You may wish to try their Discord but the support on the Base seems to have gone.

[Feverdog]

Is there anywhere to see the changelog when there are updates, or only shown within the app?

 

So tempted to order right now, though likely wont come in time for xmas but oh well.  Any of you guys wish you jumped to the VPForce or FFBeast in the end?

[Biggus]

10 hours ago, Feverdog said:

Any of you guys wish you jumped to the VPForce or FFBeast in the end?

My feelings about my AB9 are a bit complicated and probably sound more negative than I intend.

I love the hardware.  The software situation lets it down in terms of both minor bugs and the failure to comply with the terms of the license for what they've taken from Walmis.  The activity of the software devs on the Moza discord went from constant discussion before the discovery of the appropriated code to zero immediately after.

If I had the time available to wait or to build, sure, I'd have grabbed one of those other options.  The Moza was available immediately, didn't require me to put it together and was a reasonable price.  If the Winwing FFB had been available when I ordered, I probably would have had a harder time deciding.

With all that said though, I have a pretty big smile on my face every time I fly now.  It's been quite transformative.

[Feverdog]

49 minutes ago, Biggus said:

My feelings about my AB9 are a bit complicated and probably sound more negative than I intend.

I love the hardware.  The software situation lets it down in terms of both minor bugs and the failure to comply with the terms of the license for what they've taken from Walmis.  The activity of the software devs on the Moza discord went from constant discussion before the discovery of the appropriated code to zero immediately after.

If I had the time available to wait or to build, sure, I'd have grabbed one of those other options.  The Moza was available immediately, didn't require me to put it together and was a reasonable price.  If the Winwing FFB had been available when I ordered, I probably would have had a harder time deciding.

With all that said though, I have a pretty big smile on my face every time I fly now.  It's been quite transformative.

I get the software issue rubbing a lot up the wrong way, though it certainly isnt the first or the last of companies to do this.

I'm torn on the order, theres a 15% off black friday code, though I dont have much info on the company (but thats where credit cards come in handy for protection I guess).  I'd love to get the upgraded FFBeast for stronger performance etc...though I've no idea how developed that is on the software front, which ultimately boils down to, and code-stealing aside, Moza are established in the sim market

And then to decide if I want the Z-Axis 10cm extension too, in theory the Z axis is could for space games, but obviously in locked mode for DCS, though seems no space games are supported yet anyway....and a little bit steep, or I could go for similar price VPC Flightstick S curve Extension, though seems to be hit and miss comments wise on if its that bit too long

Oh, on that note, can anyone with the Z-Axis 10cm extension confirm it works no issus with the Warthog regular grip as thats what I'd be using

It kinda sucks that it basically looks impossible to use on eg a regular desk cos of its height (The MS Sidewinder of ye olde days was no problem in that respect.  I do have a GT Omega Prime cockpit tho its disassembled at moment so regular desk back in place.  I'll get the clamp however which no doubt come in useful 

 

edit: I guess the chance of getting any sort of future discount on the AB9 for the near future is going to be rare so makes sense for me to order, with the downside of possibly longer wait and likely not in time for xmas, aswell as the risk of a smaller company.  I mainly can't decide on the z axis extension if I need it or not haha (never had/used one - I like the idea of S curve one, though yeah maybe that bit too big if it drastically reduces the effects or harder to mount

Edited December 1, 2024 by Feverdog

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

About the wait time on the "other side", currently it is still 80+ days which has not moved for the past 2 weeks. Yes, I am in the queue like any good UK people know how to do naturally. I have no crystal ball about the WinWing one which has been hinted from time to time. By the time my VPForce order is ready, at least I think we would know more about the WinWing "ship" so I would be able to make the call.

I am keeping my Moza. I am not too brothered by the software issue. As long as it can stay in the MFSSB mode, replacing my current Warthog base for F-16 style planes. I am happy.

Edited December 1, 2024 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[Rosebud47]

Let´s hope WinWing does not have a code-line similar to one in Moza´s software - people might never get to level up their system and enjoy the advantage of Force Feedback.

[Aapje]

Perhaps the reason they are taking longer to get to market is because they actually write their own software...

[Hammer1-1]

7 hours ago, VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants said:

About the wait time on the "other side", currently it is still 80+ days which has not moved for the past 2 weeks. Yes, I am in the queue like any good UK people know how to do naturally. I have no crystal ball about the WinWing one which has been hinted from time to time. By the time my VPForce order is ready, at least I think we would know more about the WinWing "ship" so I would be able to make the call.

I am keeping my Moza. I am not too brothered by the software issue. As long as it can stay in the MFSSB mode, replacing my current Warthog base for F-16 style planes. I am happy.

I havent seen it move in the last 2 weeks either, but give him a chance to update his bot first. I see that number has been fluctuating a LOT over the past 2 months or so; went from a 290 days to 117 days to ~70 days currently. A lot of ppl have cancelled their sticks, good chance that more have followed...but it is the holidays so give him a small break for not updating. Last update was 11/14, and the holidays just started.

 

VPforceBot
APP
 — Today at 9:43 AM
I have your RHINO reservation(s) for k-----y@yahoo.com !
Reservation date: 2024-09-17 02:19:04
Assigned S/N: #1204 (subject to change)
Estimated wait: approx. 112 Rhinos to go! (~70 days)
Reservation Status: Waiting

Edited December 1, 2024 by Hammer1-1

[Scott-S6]

5 hours ago, Rosebud47 said:

Let´s hope WinWing does not have a code-line similar to one in Moza´s software - people might never get to level up their system and enjoy the advantage of Force Feedback.

They can use the same code base if they want, they just need to release their modified version under the GPL for other people to also use - contribute back to the community that provided them with the code that makes their product work. That's the whole point of the GPL - if you benefit from someone else's code then you let other people benefit from the improvements you make to it.

All Moza need to do in order to comply with the license of the code they've used, that saved them huge amount of development cost, is share their version of it under the same license. 

Edited December 1, 2024 by Scott-S6

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

55 minutes ago, Hammer1-1 said:

I havent seen it move in the last 2 weeks either, but give him a chance to update his bot first. I see that number has been fluctuating a LOT over the past 2 months or so; went from a 290 days to 117 days to ~70 days currently. A lot of ppl have cancelled their sticks, good chance that more have followed...but it is the holidays so give him a small break for not updating. Last update was 11/14, and the holidays just started.

 

VPforceBot
APP
 — Today at 9:43 AM
I have your RHINO reservation(s) for k-----y@yahoo.com !
Reservation date: 2024-09-17 02:19:04
Assigned S/N: #1204 (subject to change)
Estimated wait: approx. 112 Rhinos to go! (~70 days)
Reservation Status: Waiting

I dunno how the bot works, but I just say, my guess is before my order is ready, we would know more about the WinWing offer. I am open to either one for I already have the Moza.

As for the software issue, from one Chinese company to another, I dunno and I don't really care.

Edited December 1, 2024 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants

[Hammer1-1]

Im not buying from another chinese company ever again after my winwing issue, and the fact that Moza pulled this stunt just reinforced my belief. Id rather wait 3 more months rather than support the communist party blueprinting processes.

[Feverdog]

Took the chance and bought (minus the Z-Axis while I decide whether I want that or the Virpil 20cm S curve) .  £466.65 with VAT included.  Can't see it arriving in time for xmas, but thats no big deal to me, I'd be too busy on xmas day anyway

Certainly excited to receive it, I really missed the old MS FFB stick of old, once they stopped releasing game ports for pcs and went to USB

[Rosebud47]

@Feverdog You won´t regret! After 10 years of flying the Blackshark, I could now fly it as it should be and it is so much better - this counts fo all helicopter in DCS! Even the Hornet feels much more accurate with ForceFeedback and "as it should be" despite its fly-by-wire system. It´s a great piece of hardware, even it´s still quite expensive. 

Regarding the software, well, personally I´ve set it to direct input, which works totally fine with DCS as it natively supports ForceFeedback. There could be done more by the DCS developers to make use of ForceFeedback for the modules, but that´s in their hands. I don´t have the time to fiddle with the ForceFeedback software and to me it feels stupid to have the stick rumbling like crazy, when I fire the guns, but well, everyone to their liking.

@Aapje @Scott-S6 got your points and you are right regarding how IP is treated, but Moza does not make business with the software, they sell hardware. Who knows, if the software wasn´t written by ChatGPT for that additional functions for the hardware. Personally I don´t care for the software, but I am with you, if the software would have been the selling point.
On the other hand - and that´s just my personal opinion - it´s more user friendly, to have additional software functions for hardware of different manufacturer more in line to each other ( I was so happy since BMS has the keymapping functionality orientated on the keymapping function in DCS and recently I also was happy, that MSFS2024 orientated their keymapping as well more to the functionality we got in DCS ). I´d say, Moza is in competition with other ForceFeedback hardware provider, about the quality of the hardware and the price. Discussing intellectual property is a  rabbit hole, I won´t follow with regard to the hardware discussed here. 

[Aapje]

1 hour ago, Rosebud47 said:

Moza does not make business with the software, they sell hardware.

They sell a combination of hardware and software. And from what I've read on the forums, most if not nearly all people see it that way. You are the first person I've seen to state that he doesn't care.

And I doubt that even basic DirectX FFB would work without software support...

[Scott-S6]

10 hours ago, Rosebud47 said:

but Moza does not make business with the software, they sell hardware

If believing that makes you feel better then you do you but it's very much not true. Would anyone have bought an AB9 if the software didn't exist? 

The hardware doesn't function without the software (even for directinput), the two are inextricably linked. This isn't like thrustmaster's target software which you can just choose not to use (and many do), you need the software for the hardware to function. Also, maybe read the license agreement for that software...

If the software really was inconsequential then why don't they release the source under the GPL and there won't be any code theft issue anymore? This is all they have to do in return for using code that has saved them six figures in dev costs.

If you just said "I don't care, it's not my problem" then that's a position I guess but these mental gymnastics suggest that you do care 

Edited December 2, 2024 by Scott-S6

[Mr_sukebe]

Just to add, love mine.  
 

Ref the licensing issue.

Yes, clearly it appears to be an issue.  Is it our problem?  IMO, not really.  
Above all, it’s an issue between the initial developer and Moza.  So just as I stay out of the Razbam/ED discussion, I see little value in debating it.

Ref Moza as a company.  Yes, they are Chinese, but they do have what appears to be a track record with the Sim racing gear, which gave me more confidence.

As for their ethics, that’s a bit of a mess, but where do you stop on that?

Tesla are now associated with a Trump, Ford operated car manufacturing in Nazi Germany etc.  

 

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

I am amazed by how some people could stuff their own words into others mouth. There are tons of software historically with ethical issue we are still (forced) to use daily. Yes, I am looking at you, Microsoft. I really don't care. I don't drive a VM and I don't know how many of their drivers would care if the company works with countries with shady human rights records or the company outright cheated on their exhaust test results.

I really don't care how Moza does with the software. And I Have Spoken^TM.

From this point onward, my post here will be only about the joy and issue regarding the base, not the company.

Edited December 2, 2024 by VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants