Force feedback Joystick from Moza

[Hiob]

Oh, suddenly the peak force went from 9 to 12? I bet you a fortune, that is diagonally when both motors pull. (check the math - it plays out).

It‘s still the same force the Rhino can deliver. Unless they suddenly found 3 Nm per motor…..

Marketing - gotta love it….

EDIT: To their credit - they actually openly explain that the 12 Nm is the resulting force of two motors and that each single one has 9 Nm. So my above statement is irrelevant.

Edited July 1, 2024 by Hiob

[rapid]

Still gonna get one.

 

Now do I wait for Amazon to begin selling it as I get free delivery  or go direct to the Moza site?

 

Bah! I placed the order.

 

Edited June 27, 2024 by rapid

[PawlaczGMD]

So it seems that the Moza base is compatible with TM sticks. Does anyone know if it means it also works with WW? 

I would order it, but I don't want their stick, I like the WW one.

[Tzigy]

3 hours ago, rapid said:

Still gonna get one.

 

Now do I wait for Amazon to begin selling it as I get free delivery  or go direct to the Moza site?

 

Bah! I placed the order.

 

 

yeah, me2

[Aapje]

6 hours ago, Hiob said:

Oh, suddenly the peak force went from 9 to 12? I bet you a fortune, that is diagonally when both motors pull. (check the math - it plays out).

It‘s still the same force the Rhino can deliver. Unless they suddenly found 3 Nm per motor…..

Marketing - gotta love it….

Already trying to find an edge over the upcoming Winwing FFB base.

[rapid]

3 minutes ago, Aapje said:

Already trying to find an edge over the upcoming Winwing FFB base.

I went with Moza as it looked shorter than the Winwing and i'm "just saying" i have no proof just a guess - that it may not run as hot as the Winwing as it has vents,  proves nothing  just a guess plus Moza knows about FFB already as they have driving products out for Driving SimPits

[LucShep]

21 hours ago, Aapje said:

Then how do you explain that TM asks more for a worse stick than Winwing? Equating price with quality is a mistake.

Key for a good lower-end product is to make the money go far. Spend it on things that matter for a large audience. For example, very many people slam the joystick on their desk or mount it to the side of their chair. In both cases, they don't need an extension. Building a product for an extension creates all kinds of issues that require more expensive solutions to solve. Similarly, being able to easily swap sticks is something very few people need, but creates a lot of additional costs in needing durable and relatively expensive connectors on both ends.

Products like the Gladiator and the Ursa Minor excise those features to reduce costs a lot, but this doesn't actually reduce the quality for those that don't need those features.

And there are also a lot of ways to reduce costs by optimizing the design for cheaper manufacture, while not hurting the quality too much. And there is also the Trustmaster Warthog way, where you make the product look expensive, without actually making a quality product. For example, by taking a plastic product and screwing metal plates to it. Premium appearance without premium quality.

I concur on some points, but not on others.

I had the VKB NXT Gladiator and it's a really good stick, almost perfect for those who don't use a dedicated cockpit (i.e, HOTAS on a table, or mounted to the sides of their chair).
Awesome feeling, durable and affordable flight stick?  Yes, it's the proof it can be done.

The major gripe I had with the VKB NXT Gladiator was the small deflection on both Axis, so much that it eventually took a toll on my experience and I just couldn't keep using it.
And I'm seeing that the WW Ursa Minor has even less deflection on both Axis than the VKB Gladiator..... 

I ended selling the VKB NXT Gladiator to a friend, and getting a used TM Warthog stick from a fellow member of this forum.
The TM Warthog stick imediately felt much better (still does) for me. And, regardless of the ball and socket gimbal bad rep (it's older inferior tech), I have never regretted the move. My flight-sim experience (mostly with the F-14B module, my favorite) has increased pretty noticeably. Really, I only wish it had FFB.

Where I think you probably hit a good point (knowingly or unknowingly) is, that FFB stick iterations of what the VKB Gladiator and WW Ursa Minor are today, will eventually come. 
It just won't be now, because the "mainstream" (as in "non boutique") FFB stick market has just reborn.
There will be plenty small obstacles (software and reliability, for instances) with mostly "early adopters" who don't mind paying and going through that.  And manufacturers need to create the biggest imediate impact (image and product wise) while getting the biggest profit margin per unit.  Which more expensive and complicated "bigger" flight sticks, like those announced, will suit.
The more affordable sticks, like FFB iterations of the VKB Gladiator and WW Ursa Minor, would (and will, I think) obfuscate all that. Their time will eventually come.

Edited June 28, 2024 by LucShep

[Aapje]

45 minutes ago, rapid said:

I went with Moza as it looked shorter than the Winwing and i'm "just saying" i have no proof just a guess - that it may not run as hot as the Winwing as it has vents,  proves nothing  just a guess plus Moza knows about FFB already as they have driving products out for Driving SimPits

It's thanks to people like you who can't keep it in their pants* that we get the early customer reviews.

* Their wallet

[Aapje]

4 minutes ago, LucShep said:

Where I think you probably hit a good point (knowingly or unknowingly) is, that FFB sticks iterations of what the VKB Gladiator and WW Ursa Minor are today, will eventually come. 
It just won't be now, because the "mainstream" (as in "non boutique") FFB stick market has just reborned.

I agree. The buyers of the current iteration are the guinea pigs for this tech and only once they are confident they got it right, will they go for the lower end.

It's the same for the simracing stuff, the cheaper direct drive options only came later as well.

[rapid]

47 minutes ago, Aapje said:

It's thanks to people like you who can't keep it in their pants* that we get the early customer reviews.

* Their wallet

Yeah I blame the wife walking out on my illness ROFL.

When it arrives let me know what you need to know.

Edited June 28, 2024 by rapid

[Nightdare]

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

Then how do you explain that TM asks more for a worse stick than Winwing? Equating price with quality is a mistake.

 

Well, they were THE gear to have 20 years ago, and say all you want, but the Warthog is still loved by many after 14 years, some still use it from release date

Don't deny every serious Simmer wanted a TM until Virpil, VKB showed they could do better (but not actually cheaper, that was shown by Winwing)

 

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

Key for a good lower-end product is to make the money go far. Spend it on things that matter for a large audience. For example, very many people slam the joystick on their desk or mount it to the side of their chair. In both cases, they don't need an extension. Building a product for an extension creates all kinds of issues that require more expensive solutions to solve. Similarly, being able to easily swap sticks is something very few people need, but creates a lot of additional costs in needing durable and relatively expensive connectors on both ends.

Products like the Gladiator and the Ursa Minor excise those features to reduce costs a lot, but this doesn't actually reduce the quality for those that don't need those features.

 

40 years ago, cars rusted to hell within a few years, not anymore, because the quality of the material improved and became cheaper

That's why you are getting better stuff these days

 

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

And there are also a lot of ways to reduce costs by optimizing the design for cheaper manufacture, while not hurting the quality too much. And there is also the Trustmaster Warthog way, where you make the product look expensive, without actually making a quality product. For example, by taking a plastic product and screwing metal plates to it. Premium appearance without premium quality.

 

Ah yes, marketing, because no company uses that

Of course in the time of the Warthog using metal, that many plastic joystick's housings cracked seems to be so long ago, most have forgotten that happened

 

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

That's not really how it works. There are tariffs for some product categories, but also trade agreements that reduce tariffs. The low prices for the Ursa Minor sticks already show that you are simply wrong in what you think you know.

 

That chinese materials and labor are much cheaper than western? How am I wrong in thinking that?

 

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

This is not a very useful metric in isolation. For example, there is also less competition (and a lot of the old companies have stagnated and thereby offer up a great opportunity for them to be outcompeted), and a rapidly growing demand, which both provide good conditions for introducing new products at lower price points. And new entrants like Moza have an incentive to be very aggressive with the margins, because it is much wiser to grow market share first and then get good margins on higher sales volumes, then to remain small and then try to make good margins. Because in the latter situation, it is very hard to cover the fixed costs and then also make a strong profit on top of that.

 

Really? Market size is not a good metric? It's what gives incentives for companies to chase

 

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

Again, gateway drug. They see the planes in War Thunder, they hear that flying is much better with a stick, they see that the price of a good basic stick is within their reach and give it a go. Now you have started a percentage of those people off on a journey to this:

 

How many people,...

 

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

It is very obvious that we are in a significant upswing in demand right now.

Upswing? Yes

But, how much?

Selling 2000 Hotas instead of 1000 is a 100% sales increase, but is that a large market? No!

 

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

It can provide for a healthy profit for quite a few companies. As many/good as sim racing? No. But still quite good.

 

How good, that it's growing is a positive development, but that says nothing about how big the market will get, it may even shrink again

 

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

By this logic no one would make new sim racing equipment either, because initial investments are going to be earned back much sooner if you sell Ferrari's.

 

You'd be surprised how little margin Ferrari makes, also, can everyone afford a Ferrari?

 

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

But the reality is that there is money to be made in many ways, and not much money to be made if everyone tries to sell the same thing. It's not like flight simmers are suddenly going to be buying steering wheels to use with their flight sims. The only way to get that money is to sell flight simming gear.

 

 

 

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

I found a retail price of $109 and thus a little lower price after inflation.

 

But inflation is just the value of money over time, not products

I bought my USA Jackson guitar in 2001 for $2500, the same guitar will cost me OVER $5000 now, that's a bigger increase in price than the inflation I showed for the money one bought a MSFFB

 

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

However, what you ignore is that technology has also improved and you could not buy a Ursa Minor-quality joystick for $110 back then, especially if you calculate back the inflation. You are stacking the deck in favor of your argument by only considering the negative (inflation) without considering the positive (improved technology).

 

No, you need to compare contemporary technology

Yes technology improved since then, but as the tech now is the only tech you have, the same was true back then

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

This is another one of your factual errors. Ferrari was spun off in 2016. And they are definitely a moneymaker.

 

Ferrari is co-owned by Dutch holding company Exor 

They need a big financial backer to remain viable, yes, they are making money NOW, their history shows exceptions

 

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

Doesn't matter. If sim racers start with a controller and then transition to a $400 set, and then go to a $800 set, etc, the drug dealer model works.

 

No, drugs are a bigger market

 

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

Key is that the products need to exist to get people into the funnel (as many as possible), that these products give them a good enough taste to not be turned off en masse, and that there are products for them to upgrade to that provide strong and clear benefits, but are also not too expensive to make the jump up too much of a stretch.

 

We agree on one thing

 

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

My point is that a relatively cheap FFB joystick could fit great in such a line-up and without it, the $700+ FFB options are probably going to limit their audience much more than with a more effective funnel.

 

You're not gonna get a cheap FFB joystick, don't look at the low end market, look at midrange, then add FFB

You can't build FFB on a budget chassis without improving quality (= cost), there are a bit more forces involved

 

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

As I said, I think that you ignore technological improvements and only look at things negatively. Winwing now sells a joystick with twist, hall effect sensors and more buttons than joysticks of the past for just $110. This is way better value for money than joysticks of the past, which broke much sooner and had bad dead zones.

 

I point back at the available tech and quality of materials in the past, it was what was available then, and we are using what is available now

You are making an unfair comparison

 

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

But even a $300 price point is great compared to a $500 base, that requires a $200 stick and requires a $100+ mounting device. That's still half the price of the complete solution, and I can see quite a few people actually preferring the smaller all-in-one joystick that fits on top of their desk.

 

And again, you're not gonna get a $300 FFB joystick built on a $110 budget offering

It needs more R&D, tech materials and quality to last (Not to mention takes up twice as much volume and weight in logistics, so you can only ship half the amount at the same shipping price)

 

22 hours ago, Aapje said:

You are completely ignoring my point that I think that it is possible to offer a much cheaper throttle that is way better than the TWCS, but is much less than $250.

I feel that I'm looking at what it possible and what we should have, while you are the negative Nancy shouting "everything is always getting worse!"

 

I don't care about your feelings, I care about practicality and viability

What you desire is a Ducati Supersport 950 for everyone, at the price of a Honda CB650R, while most people only have a car license

[Mr_sukebe]

I see that we also have WW and Virpil looking to join the party.  Excellent!

[rapid]

1 hour ago, Mr_sukebe said:

I see that we also have WW and Virpil looking to join the party.  Excellent!

I discounted the WW as it was way to big plus it had vents which made me think that it may run hot. As for Virpli still waiting to see what it will look like -seen some snips but not sure if it actually is a FFB Base.

[LucShep]

3 hours ago, Mr_sukebe said:

I see that we also have WW and Virpil looking to join the party.  Excellent!

Yeah, it seems like 2025 will be year of the FFB flight sticks ressurgence. Virpil has something planned as well (to be announced soon?).

https://forum.virpil.com/index.php?/topic/21078-back-from-fsexpo-2024-force-feedback/


 

Edited June 28, 2024 by LucShep
added link

[rapid]

19 minutes ago, LucShep said:

Yeah, it seems like 2025 will be year of the FFB flight sticks ressurgence. Virpil has something planned as well (to be announced soon?).

https://forum.virpil.com/index.php?/topic/21078-back-from-fsexpo-2024-force-feedback/

 

Hope I haven't shot my Bolt too soon lol. I have a Virpil button Box very good piece of engineering. We should expect something decent from them. If it beats the Moza i'll sell it and by it.

Edited June 28, 2024 by rapid

[LucShep]

1 minute ago, rapid said:

Hope I haven't shot my Bolt too soon lol. I have a Virpil button Box very good piece of engineering. We should expect something decent from them. If it beats the Moza i'll sell it and by it.

Maybe cancel your pre-order and wait a little longer, see what news come up in the coming days/weeks?
I doubt Moza will be shipping their new FFB sticks before end of the year anyway(?).
 

[propeler]

20 minutes ago, LucShep said:

Maybe cancel your pre-order and wait a little longer

I would not  I would advice all to buy any FFB base you can buy. As early as possible. The more FFB devices people will own the better will be support of FFB in games - and it will be better for all!

FFB in flight controls will not stop. We are in the time of changes. And the same as with VR just waiting for ideal VR headset you loose the time of enjoying it. 

Edited June 28, 2024 by propeler

[rapid]

35 minutes ago, LucShep said:

Maybe cancel your pre-order and wait a little longer, see what news come up in the coming days/weeks?
I doubt Moza will be shipping their new FFB sticks before end of the year anyway(?).
 

I think its 4 to 6 weeks order. I'll keep the time line and see what Virpil brings and just sell it if needs be as I already mugged myself with getting the Thrustmaster AVA!!! Grrrrrr

Edited June 28, 2024 by rapid

[Aapje]

11 hours ago, rapid said:

When it arrives let me know what you need to know.

I'd like to hear whether it overheats, how soon it overheats and how it deals with overheating. So just start pulling those g's like László 'Szatyi' Szatmári.

And some testing with a warbird to see if it does all the expected things (stiffening up as speed increases, buffeting near the stall, etc).

And some screenshots of the software that you get with it.

[rapid]

I'm a Ground Pounder no G's of any value out of an A-10c and the rest are BlackShark, Kiowa, Apache and soon to come Chinook. will keep an eye out for heat.

Will look out for >>>stiffening up as speed increases, buffeting near the stall, etc

[Aapje]

11 hours ago, Nightdare said:

Don't deny every serious Simmer wanted a TM until Virpil, VKB showed they could do better (but not actually cheaper, that was shown by Winwing)

Yes, that's what happens when companies stop improving their products, other companies pass them by and you should stop buying the stuff that used to be OK, based on a reputation that was perhaps deserved in the past, but not today.

11 hours ago, Nightdare said:

40 years ago, cars rusted to hell within a few years, not anymore, because the quality of the material improved and became cheaper

That's why you are getting better stuff these days

American car companies lagged behind a lot in reliability/durability. which is a lot of the smarter buyers went to Asian cars.

Progress is not some magical thing that you get for free. It does take hard work from companies and as consumers, we need to reward the companies that do this hard work, and not companies that are content to sit back and coast.

11 hours ago, Nightdare said:

That chinese materials and labor are much cheaper than western? How am I wrong in thinking that?

I don't understand what point you are making here. The argument was that things can be made pretty cheaply and you argued that there are huge tariffs and such that increase the prices a ton. You are not actually addressing that false statement that you made and that I disagreed with.

 

11 hours ago, Nightdare said:

Really? Market size is not a good metric? It's what gives incentives for companies to chase

It's a good metric, but certainly not the only metric. There is also a diminishing impact when volume goes up. When making very low quantity, the fixed costs weigh very heavily, but once volume goes up, it quickly becomes far less impactful. When making 10 vs 1000, the fixed costs make a huge difference in the costs per unit, but that is far less so when making 100k vs 1 million, even though in absolute numbers, the latter gap is far bigger.

11 hours ago, Nightdare said:

How good, that it's growing is a positive development, but that says nothing about how big the market will get, it may even shrink again

Yeah, and we may see a tightening of the belts, like the tech sector fired a lot of people after the COVID period, when their COVID growth turned out to be temporary. Hopefully the upswing lasts long enough for FFB to firmly establish itself in the market, and after the upswing ends, we stabilize at a pretty high level.

11 hours ago, Nightdare said:

You'd be surprised how little margin Ferrari makes, also, can everyone afford a Ferrari?

But that's exactly the point I made. If everyone tried to make Ferrari's, the margins for high-tier cars would drop, while there would be a lot of money left on the table that one can get by selling cheaper cars. That's why I see a solid market for a cheaper FFB option.

11 hours ago, Nightdare said:

You're not gonna get a cheap FFB joystick, don't look at the low end market, look at midrange, then add FFB

Not $110 cheap, but I definitely see room for something way cheaper than a full Moza FFB setup.

11 hours ago, Nightdare said:

You can't build FFB on a budget chassis without improving quality (= cost), there are a bit more forces involved

I already argued for less powerful motors in the cheaper version (with less of a lever, so the impact on forces felt is not reduced as much as you would think), so the budget chassis needs to be less strong than the Moza AB9 base.

The Moza base also uses expensive aluminium on the outside, so replacing that with plastic reduces cost. And a smaller all-in-one solution needs less material anyway. It all saves costs.

11 hours ago, Nightdare said:

I point back at the available tech and quality of materials in the past, it was what was available then, and we are using what is available now

You are making an unfair comparison

It's not an unfair comparison when I'm arguing that they can now make a much better version of the FFB2, using that modern tech, without having to increase the price by a huge amount.

11 hours ago, Nightdare said:

And again, you're not gonna get a $300 FFB joystick built on a $110 budget offering

It needs more R&D, tech materials and quality to last (Not to mention takes up twice as much volume and weight in logistics, so you can only ship half the amount at the same shipping price)

You've got a whole extra $190 to pay for that extra R&D, materials, shipping and such. That is quite a bit of money. I think that it can be done.

Note that you ignore my arguments that companies may be willing to sacrifice their margins in the short term, for a long term gain.

11 hours ago, Nightdare said:

I don't care about your feelings, I care about practicality and viability

What you desire is a Ducati Supersport 950 for everyone, at the price of a Honda CB650R, while most people only have a car license

That is just not true. You refuse to respond to what I actually argued.

What I'm arguing is replacing the engine of that motorbike with one that costs way less, making the motorbike way smaller, and using cheaper materials. In other words, exactly what they do to make that Honda CB650R far cheaper.

Edited June 28, 2024 by Aapje

[Aapje]

26 minutes ago, rapid said:

I'm a Ground Pounder no G's of any value out of an A-10c and the rest are BlackShark, Kiowa, Apache and soon to come Chinook. will keep an eye out for heat.

For you, the biggest gain by far should be in the helicopters. I'm personally not very interested in that at the moment, but you might want to review how well it works there, for people who are into having their lift surfaces do all kinds of weird stuff.

[propeler]

36 minutes ago, Aapje said:

If everyone tried to make Ferrari's, the margins for high-tier cars would drop, while there would be a lot of money left on the table that one can get by selling cheaper cars. That's why I see a solid market for a cheaper FFB option.

Man, what are you talking about? Do you name sub 1000$ flight gears "Ferrari"? It's price of entry level hardtail bicycle nowadays! The cheapest flight sim oriented chair "Next Level Racing Boeing Flight Simulator" cost just a little less (and it is just welded tubes with cheap chair attached to it).  In terms of comparison to cars all present on the market now (including Brunner) is not even Toyota Corolla. It is closer to Yaris as most. What you propose to produce will be closer to Fiat Seicento 

 

Ferrary will be a full CNCd base made of titanium, with industrial servo motors 50Nm+. And will cost the price

Edited June 28, 2024 by propeler

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

1 hour ago, rapid said:

I'm a Ground Pounder no G's of any value out of an A-10c and the rest are BlackShark, Kiowa, Apache and soon to come Chinook. will keep an eye out for heat.

Will look out for >>>stiffening up as speed increases, buffeting near the stall, etc

Precisely the real A-10 got a stick shaker effect when approaching stall speed

[rapid]

20 minutes ago, Ala12Rv-Tundra said:

Precisely the real A-10 got a stick shaker effect when approaching stall speed

Sweet will give it a try.