Jester feedback

[Q3ark]

7 hours ago, Xtorris said:

I gave you a play-by-play of what happened in two identical encounters, which has only one variable. Yet, I am more or less being called incompetent or a liar. That's one way to lose a customer.

A track file is a diagnostic tool, it lets the devs see what’s going on behind the scenes in the sim. They werent designed as a replay tool, that’s why they de-sync over time. Nobody is calling you names.

[WinOrLose]

9 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

I have a different, better experience flying this mission.

Please send a track our way and we can tell you what you can improve - or possibly spot any bugs with Jester

No problem - will do. Are the tracks saved somewhere automatically or is it something I need to do?

[Zabuzard]

1 hour ago, WinOrLose said:

No problem - will do. Are the tracks saved somewhere automatically or is it something I need to do?

In the debriefing window, there is a "Save Track" button

[WinOrLose]

12 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

In the debriefing window, there is a "Save Track" button

Attached are 5 track files - all the way to the merge without a lock - hopefully its just me doing something wrong.

bvr 1.trk bvr 2.trk bvr 3.trk bvr 4.trk bvr 5.trk

[Zabuzard]

8 hours ago, WinOrLose said:

Attached are 5 track files - all the way to the merge without a lock - hopefully its just me doing something wrong.

It seems you are constantly pressing the context actions, way too often. Resulting in commanding Jester to lock, then unlock, then lock, then unlock, ... you send the action about 8 times.

He found and called out your bandit at 21nm

Then you told him to lock the guy and Jester locked him

While he was locking, you told him to unlock him again. So a few seconds later he unlocked him. While he was unlocking, you already commanded him to lock and shortly after to unlock again. And so on.

Try to give Jester one command and then wait for its execution

If I take control of your replay, command the lock once and shoot as soon as in range, I am able to force your bandit defensive at 20nm and shoot another missile for kill at 7 nm.

Edited August 7, 2024 by Zabuzard

[WinOrLose]

2 minutes ago, Zabuzard said:

It seems you are constantly pressing the context actions, way too often. Resulting in commanding Jester to lock, then unlock, then lock, then unlock, ... you send the action about 8 times.

He found and called out your bandit at 21nm

Then you told him to lock the guy and Jester locked him

While he was locking, you told him to unlock him again. So a few seconds later he unlocked him. While he was unlocking, you already commanded him to lock and shortly after to unlock again. And so on.

Try to give Jester one command and then wait for its execution

 

Thanks for the prompt response but I wouldn’t say it was “constantly”. Of the 5 tracks I don’t recall seeing a single contact on the radar. 
 

To clarify if you press the context button and Jester says “I can’t do that” do you need to wait a set time just in case he can before pressing the context button again?

[Zabuzard]

4 minutes ago, WinOrLose said:

To clarify if you press the context button and Jester says “I can’t do that” do you need to wait a set time just in case he can before pressing the context button again?

I was replaying track 1. The bandit appears on screen at 21nm, Jester calls him out and moves the cursor over him. At about 17nm you are commanding lock, then unlock, then lock, then unlock, then lock, then unlock. All the way until merge. Jester is spamming commands and voice phrases as you give him new directives.

If I click on "Take Control" once the bandit appears on screen and hit Context Action LONG once (hold V for a few milliseconds) and then stop giving Jester commands, he successfully locks the bad guy and keeps the lock as intended. Lock achieved at 19nm.

Edited August 7, 2024 by Zabuzard

[Spurts]

I have been loving the new Jester features.  Mid mission fuel checks, giving me navigation cues while I am doing low level runs through a mountain pass, and my favorite was right on my first flight.  Load up a hot start on the ground and as soon as I start taxiing I hear "Oh man, I've been looking forward to this."  Me too, buddy, me too.  Does he lose sight of bandits more that he did in the Tomcat? yes, but so do I because there isn't a bubble canopy. 

[WinOrLose]

4 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

I was replaying track 1. The bandit appears on screen at 21nm, Jester calls him out and moves the cursor over him. At about 17nm you are commanding lock, then unlock, then lock, then unlock, then lock, then unlock. All the way until merge. Jester is spamming commands and voice phrases as you give him new directives.

If I click on "Take Control" once the bandit appears on screen and hit Context Action LONG once (hold V for a few milliseconds) and then stop giving Jester commands, he successfully locks the bad guy and keeps the lock as intended. Lock achieved at 19nm.

 

I’ll have to replay the track and take a look however I am pretty sure in the actual flight there was no radar contact. 

[Zabuzard]

2 hours ago, WinOrLose said:

I’ll have to replay the track and take a look however I am pretty sure in the actual flight there was no radar contact. 

I see, that explains the usage of the Context Command Kinda odd, but that might also be good news then. I am replaying the track on the latest developer version, so possibly whatever was the issue might be gone with the next update then. I dont recall anyone touching anything in that direction, but you never know

Edited August 7, 2024 by Zabuzard

[WinOrLose]

1 hour ago, Zabuzard said:

I see, that explains the usage of the Context Command Kinda odd, but that might also be good news then. I am replaying the track on the latest developer version, so possibly whatever was the issue might be gone with the next update then. I dont recall anyone touching anything in that direction, but you never know

 

Thanks - I’ll try another few tracks without touching anything. 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

19 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

so possibly whatever was the issue might be gone with the next update then

I tried BVR 1 as well on my end. When I started the track, my F-4 was vibration violently ("nodding" the nose up and down at least 10 times per second) and my wingman was doing a Cobra. So I took control, after which both F-4s behaved normally again.

Jester detected both contacts at 17 miles. He locked up the first and I fired a Sparrow, killing him. The 2nd MiG merged but was killed by my wingman.

 

On 8/7/2024 at 9:13 AM, WinOrLose said:

Of the 5 tracks I don’t recall seeing a single contact on the radar.

Are you running the latest version of DCS?

[Zabuzard]

1 hour ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

I tried BVR 1 as well on my end. When I started the track, my F-4 was vibration violently ("nodding" the nose up and down at least 10 times per second) and my wingman was doing a Cobra. So I took control, after which both F-4s behaved normally again.

Thats actually fairly "normal" behavior when replaying tracks, since DCS constantly teleports your plane back to the exact position it had during the real session. So you see how the simulation moves the aircraft to a slightly different position than what it was originally, which is then getting "corrected back", causing the jitter.

Happens especially whenever you update DCS and replay old tracks, but can also happen directly after recording in some situations. This can essentially be seen on pretty much all aircraft in the game.

Edited August 8, 2024 by Zabuzard

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

2 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

"normal" behavior

Sure makes your job of debugging and trying to figure out possible issues based on users' track files all the more exciting, eh?  

[aaronwhite]

On 7/31/2024 at 12:39 PM, =475FG= Dawger said:

Seems I hit a tender spot. 

I will say, your delivery could use some work. You don't have to denigrate the work to point out issues you have with it. 

Calling something "pointless development" because you don't like the word order is honestly a bit of a harsh critique that could be phrased much better, especially in a thread where the actual developers are working to explain things and why they are the way they are. 

Jester isn't perfect, but I think they've done a great job of making him act and sound more human. You may get frustrated at the phrasing, but the ARMA style of "Target, Fishbed, 7 O'clock" is likely less realistic than you're intending it to be, and even just watching streams from real pilots playing DCS shows you that they aren't always exact in their callouts, because things get tense and stuff happens. 

He isn't meant to be some all seeing personification of the RWR and radar from a modern jet, he's meant to be a realistic representation of the complexity of a multi-crewed plane flying in an engine that was designed before multi-crew was even really a thought in DCS. It's a tough tightrope to walk, and at the very least you could try to be a little less condescending towards the developers who are actively trying to explain how things work at the moment and take suggestions on how they can improve.

[aaronwhite]

11 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

Thats actually fairly "normal" behavior when replaying tracks, since DCS constantly teleports your plane back to the exact position it had during the real session. So you see how the simulation moves the aircraft to a slightly different position than what it was originally, which is then getting "corrected back", causing the jitter.

Happens especially whenever you update DCS and replay old tracks, but can also happen directly after recording in some situations. This can essentially be seen on pretty much all aircraft in the game.

 

This thread does make me wonder, and maybe I just haven't seen the pages in the manual since it's been a little while, but is there a good "Basics of using Jester in A2A" section in the manual? I briefly scrolled through the Jester section and the AIM-7 section and didn't notice it, but I admittedly haven't read in depth. 

It might be good to get a Jester Basics section for things like A2A engagements so we know how to handle the pilot portion, like what kind of angle to the target works best (ex: Do I need to be under a target looking up to give him the best chance to lock, are there certain angles that Jester struggles to get radar lock with?). 

I'm sure it's adding more to an already full plate, but I know one area I always struggled with in the F-14 was knowing where the issue was with getting Jester to do what I figured he should be able to, compared to what I was able to execute. That said, I do really appreciate the work that's been done on Jester. Even without being able to always get him to work properly (likely due to user error on my part) it's still so cool seeing all that he does still do. Even just the bogey callouts in combat are incredibly immersive. 

[WinOrLose]

12 hours ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

 

 

Are you running the latest version of DCS?

Yes

[WinOrLose]

Ok - here is 5 additional tracks, this time I didn't tell Jester to do anything, except on the 2 occasions he did detect a contact.

In summary

BVR 0% detection and 0% lock.

WVR 40% detection and 40% lock.

Bearing in mind I knew where the targets were and was below them, so just trying to understand if this is normal behaviour or if I am doing something wrong?

bvr 1a.trk bvr 2a.trk bvr 3a.trk bvr 4a.trk bvr 5a.trk

[=475FG= Dawger]

3 hours ago, aaronwhite said:

I will say, your delivery could use some work. You don't have to denigrate the work to point out issues you have with it. 

Calling something "pointless development" because you don't like the word order is honestly a bit of a harsh critique that could be phrased much better, especially in a thread where the actual developers are working to explain things and why they are the way they are. 

Jester isn't perfect, but I think they've done a great job of making him act and sound more human. You may get frustrated at the phrasing, but the ARMA style of "Target, Fishbed, 7 O'clock" is likely less realistic than you're intending it to be, and even just watching streams from real pilots playing DCS shows you that they aren't always exact in their callouts, because things get tense and stuff happens. 

He isn't meant to be some all seeing personification of the RWR and radar from a modern jet, he's meant to be a realistic representation of the complexity of a multi-crewed plane flying in an engine that was designed before multi-crew was even really a thought in DCS. It's a tough tightrope to walk, and at the very least you could try to be a little less condescending towards the developers who are actively trying to explain how things work at the moment and take suggestions on how they can improve.

Creating 80 plus versions of a word solely used to express hesitation is pointless development and incredibly annoying. 
 

I get that HB was trying to create a “personality” for the clown meant to mimic the less formal demeanor of military aviation from days gone by. 
 

The problem is they failed miserably in the attempt and neglected important aspects in the process. 
 

It is funny that you think I am harsh. My personality is much more reflective of the way we were back then. Jester is a cartoonish, imaginary version of an air crewmember from the last century. 
 

And if HB can’t take unvarnished appraisals of their creation, they are going to be hopelessly behind the power curve trying to make a ‘realistic’ Phantom WSO. 

At least he is easy to GLOC. 

[Zabuzard]

8 hours ago, aaronwhite said:

It might be good to get a Jester Basics section for things like A2A engagements so we know how to handle the pilot portion, like what kind of angle to the target works best (ex: Do I need to be under a target looking up to give him the best chance to lock, are there certain angles that Jester struggles to get radar lock with?). 

Yeah agreed. There is a section that explains Jester features:

https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/jester/combat/overview.html

But overall the manual lacks "tutorials" and generally some "hands on" guides. As in, not just explaining what each switch does, but also explaining how that should be used all together.

The manual isnt really an ideal place to teach these things and we hope to cover those aspects better with in-game trainings and YT videos and then perhaps embed/link that in the manual. That said, if someone submits a PR to the (open source) manual that adds a written "guide", would definitely appreciate and merge it

[Hiob]

@Ramstein Maybe edit the thread title a bit. The content is much less devisive and more constructive than the headline implies. It always twitches when it comes up in the feed.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

1 hour ago, Zabuzard said:

The manual isnt really an ideal place to teach these things and we hope to cover those aspects better with in-game trainings and YT videos

Back when the F-14 launched, a lot of people had problems with the SoH BVR IA mission, and IronMike stepped in and explained how he tackled that mission. He gave tips on how to give the AWG-9 the best possible chance of picking up both MiG-29s, and how to put yourself in the best position for high-pK Phoenix shots.

This helped a lot with understanding the AWG-9 / Phoenix combination. Perhaps he or someone else at HB can put aside a bit of time to do something similar for the F-4?

I bet that would help a lot of people

Edited August 9, 2024 by Raven (Elysian Angel)
typo

[Zabuzard]

8 hours ago, WinOrLose said:

Ok - here is 5 additional tracks, this time I didn't tell Jester to do anything, except on the 2 occasions he did detect a contact.

In summary

BVR 0% detection and 0% lock.

WVR 40% detection and 40% lock.

Bearing in mind I knew where the targets were and was below them, so just trying to understand if this is normal behaviour or if I am doing something wrong?

bvr 1a.trk 3.53 MB · 0 downloads bvr 2a.trk 1.21 MB · 0 downloads bvr 3a.trk 1.54 MB · 0 downloads bvr 4a.trk 1.26 MB · 0 downloads bvr 5a.trk 1.18 MB · 0 downloads

So first of, thank you for the tracks! What I am seeing on my screen looks all normal and correct to me.
I will go through all the tracks and explain whats going on. If something different happened to you when you played it, we have to investigate why (perhaps you have the radar performance special options enabled?).

In case my description lines up with your experience, I suspect the issue might just be misunderstanding of how to control Jester, i.e. when to use which Context Command. For that, I would suggest having a quick read of:
https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/jester/combat/overview.html
https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/jester/combat/radar.html
And practice until it clicks

Here we go.

Track 1:

* Jester detects both bad guys at 21nm by himself, which is very reasonable for this radar and a small fighter aircraft coming at nose-aspect
* at 10nm and 4nm you command Jester to switch the targets (SHORT press), you are not commanding him to lock (LONG press)

Track 2:

* This time you approach them with a slight angle, RCS increases and Jester can spot them at 25nm already and would be ready for a lock
* Jester is ready for a lock the entire time but you never give him the command.

Track 3:

* Again, approach from the side yields higher RCS, spotting and ready for lock at 25nm
* You are flying pretty much at the sideways limit of the radar though, so he loses sight at 20nm
* Then you are turning into them and they appear back on the screen at 17nm
* at 4nm (very late) you are giving the command to lock
* at 3nm Jester obtained a solid lock
* with the bandit at 1nm you are entering a hard turn with the target on the gimbal limit while it is deploying chaff. that broke the radar lock and Jester returns to scan mode
* you command him now to LOCK the target he just lost out of sight, so he is waiting a few seconds for it to re-appear on screen, which it never does
* instead, you probably intended to command him to lock the other guy, i.e. first tell Jester to switch targets (SHORT), then lock (LONG). Watch where his cursor is to tell who you are commanding to lock, it is still on where he lost the previous guy, not the other guy
* Also, at ranges below 5nm you should consider switching to CAGE/BORESIGHT mode instead to enable Jester to "lock the target on your nose" instead, much easier to use in a Dogfight.

Track 4:

* Similar attack profile, targets spotted at 23nm
* Command to lock at 4nm, at the same time you are executing a hard maneuver, so Jester fails to lead the target correctly with the cursor (as the proper position would be outside of screen bounds), you moved the target out of screen, Jester lost it and gave up on the lock attempt

Track 5:
* targets spotted and ready to lock at 23nm
* no lock command or anything given, you guys merge and overshoot while Jester was ready to lock the entire time
 

Edited August 9, 2024 by Zabuzard

[BIGNEWY]

20 minutes ago, Hiob said:

@Ramstein Maybe edit the thread title a bit. The content is much less devisive and more constructive than the headline implies. It always twitches when it comes up in the feed.

title edited

[RavenFrost]

I created a simple test scenario and with my little knowledge about the APG-120 the results are mostly what I expected to happen.

I placed two Mirage F1B, one at co-altitude 20000ft and the other at 25000ft, 50nnm distance, Hot Aspect, Caucasus and South Atlantic Map.

 

Scenario Nr.1a  Over Water - Summer Heat, no Clouds

- Jester sees and locks targets at about 21 to 26nm

Scenario Nr.1b  Over Water - Summer , Clouds and Wind

- Jester sees and locks targets at about 21 to 26nm

 

Scenario Nr.2a  Flat Terrain and Urban Areas- Summer Heat, no Clouds

- Jester sees and locks targets at about 20 nm

Scenario Nr.2b  Flat Terrain and Urban Areas - Summer , Clouds and Wind

- Jester sees and locks targets at about 15 to 19nm

 

Scenario Nr.3a  Mountain Area - Summer Heat, no Clouds

- Jester sees and locks targets at about 11 nm

Scenario Nr.3b  Mountain Area - Summer , Clouds and Wind

- Jester sees and locks targets at under 10 nm

 

Simple and expected conclusion: Terrain highly effects the radar performance due to groundclutter, clouds have a very small impact.

I could not experience any signifanct differences on both maps. The only two things I reconized was that Jester sometimes locks a Sidelobe, which is

intendet I guess. If I chase a bandit he locks him, but it seems he doesn't adjust the Aspect Switch for the Sparrow above 5nm. Because they go dump several

times while I get the shoot que. Overall Jester does his job well, yes he could use some improvements here and there, but I'm sure they are on their way.

 

Here are the Tracks if you like, suggestions are welcome.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

mountain-clouds-2.trk mountain-noclouds-1.trk terrain-clouds-2.trk terrain-noclouds-1.trk water-clouds-2.trk water-noclouds-1.trk