Northern Israel / Southern Lebanon detail removed

[Cutterone]

Simple question:  ED, will you be offering refunds for those of us who paid for the "previous version" of the Sinai map which now no longer exists?  For Ugra/ORT and all the other 3rd party devs.  If you really want to kill a product (DCS) and a community, THIS IS HOW YOU DO IT!  I for one, and I suspect I'm probably not alone, will be VERY hesitant to purchase ANY future maps/modules from ED, Ugra, ORT, or any other dev. knowing that products WE (the customers) have paid for can, without even the common courtesy of a notification, be taken away from us and/or altered AFTER we've paid for them.  And before anyone says it, this isn't the same as an "Early Access" or "Future Updates" issue.  Those imply that the product will be expanded upon and improved in the future, and you are made aware PRIOR to purchase, this product had stuff removed and was diminished with no notification.  So, unless it's resolved quickly with the CUSTOMERS in mind, yes ED you will pay the price for this (even though it's 3rd. party vendors) in that it WILL affect future sales (Business 101).

Carry on!

[Rockerfeller]

Until now I seriously considered as my next map buy to be Syria. But until this thing is not resolved I definitely won’t buy anything. Shame on every involved parties.

[WirtsLegs]

  On 8/10/2024 at 7:34 AM, OnReTech said:

Have a nice day, friends.

We see your indignation about the northern part of Israel in our map. Yes, this part of the map was removed from the build intentionally.
This was the demand of a third party, in order to quickly resolve the conflict, it was decided to do just that.
We are very sorry about what happened and apologize for the fact that this was not covered in advance.
But the dialogue continues, the data was not been completely removed, but only been excluded for this build.
We are doing everything possible to approve the return of northern Israel in the nearest upcoming update.

Do not be so categorical and hasty in your conclusions.
We can't always do what we want, sometimes we have to do what we are required to do.

It is obvious that our goal cannot be "to make the map worse".

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And why are you obligated to follow these third party demands exactly?

[Hawkeye_UK]

  On 8/10/2024 at 12:19 PM, Laobi said:

Dear OnReTech,

I've taken a long break from DCS over the past few years due to being busy with life and more pressing issues. 

I returned in late May, and was very optimistic  about recent developments (launch of the F4, Chinook etc.,).  The June 5th update was fantastic,  was re-acquiring old skills, developing new ones and slowly getting ready to get into the production of more videos, however unfortunately update 2.9.6.57650 killed my VR performance to the point that the game was unplayable, the hotfix 2.9.6.58056 made  things worse, and I am sorry to report the latest update has screwed the pooch even further to the point that VR is a migraine inducing slideshow.  The above is not your problem, and I generally let these things wash over my head, wait for the next update in the hope that things will improve.  I've been playing DCS for long enough to know that some updates can kill performance for some users, while improving it for others, this all depends on the myriad combinations of hardware, so I am generally patient in this regard.

Allow me to preface the following by saying that I loved this map, probably more than any other map in DCS.  I loved the map for its versatility and the ability to set it in either an historic or modern phase of the 3 ring military industrial circus we call the Middle East.

What I do neither patiently accept nor forgive is the behaviour of your company in applying this update.  This is unprofessional at every level for the following reasons:

You did not consider reaching out to your clients prior to the update to inform them of the possibility of a detrimental change.

You did not consider that it would be wise to inform current and prospective clients of the reason for this change.  Pleas do not hide behind excuses such as 'private discussions' or 'legal pressure', these pale into insignificance compared to your rapidly depleting consumer goodwill and trust.  We are your customers and we have a right to know, and a right to be part of the process prior to reaching a decision that removes one third of the value of the product we purchased.

Speaking of product value, your map only has 3 uses for military flight sim players:

1: Policing operations in the West Bank.

2: Military operations in and around the Gaza Strip.

3: Historic Arab/Israeli conflicts.

Removing the north of Israel removes any way of simulating those historic Arab/Israeli conflicts in any real or complete sense.  The ability to repel Syrian attacks over the Golan is now defunct, what are you defending?  An empty blank space, nothing of value or consequence.  You have left the mission planner/server owner with some policing operations and a lob sided Gaza turkey shoot, meanwhile the Egyptian side is left to training missions and pyramid gazing.  Additionally you added all sorts of eye candy, this is great, but not while the navigation aids are partially and in some cases not functioning, we fly past or maybe bomb the eye candy a few times while yelling 'kewlll', but we consistently curse the fact that we can't get our F16 back to our home base without navigating via the stars like Bedouin.  As for the F35 parking spaces, don't get me started, I hope to be alive for the 2050 and beyond video, but I've run the engine hard and have to be realistic regarding these things.

Finally there's your response.  It may have not broken forum rules, but it was unprofessional to an inexcusable degree.  First the greeting, we are not your friends, we are your clients, it's quite obvious from your actions and indeed your first communication that you have failed to recognise this distinction.  Then you go on to explain, without any evidence, that in order to resolve a conflict quickly you just deleted a very important portion of the product we purchased.  You do not explain with whom and why this dispute had arose, we're just supposed to trust you on this.  Of course, the implication we're supposed to draw is that Urga Media put legal pressure on you to sabotage our product, we're supposed to pack up our trebuchets and march over to besiege their part of the forum, this should not wash with us, because.....YOU MADE THE DECISION AND YOU NEUTERED OUR PRODUCT!  Then you admonish us not to be 'hasty' nor draw 'categorical' conclusions, like somehow we've got it all wrong, that somehow we have made some terrible mistake, and you are the victim of our undeserved wrath, in business there are times for everything, even for passive aggressive indignation, and indeed for grovelling, you have misread the room, this is not the time for the former!  I hope the above issues with your statement is a result of the inaccuracies of Google Translate or perhaps a lack of fluency in English, and not the intention of your message, both are forgivable, but not in public relations, this is why we employ translators or engage someone with a high degree of expertise in a language before posting messages that could be critical to the survival of our business. 

As you have made the decisions it is up to you to resolve them to the satisfaction of your customer base, or face the commercial consequences.

 

Thank you,

Laobi

To the Moderators:  It is not my intention to inflame the situation, just to make my displeasure with this event unequivocally clear.  I appreciate all the hard work you guys do and know it is often a thankless task.  I do not believe I have broken the forum rules here, but if I have sailed too close to the wind please remove it, as always, your house, your rules, I will post this elsewhere without taking offence.

 

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Good lord and here was me thinking you had not been able to escape an S&M dungeon for the last year or two - good to see you still alive and surviving! 

[Brk195]

I'm not going to jump to conclusions here and point fingers since OnReTech have not stated by name the party behind the reasons for their decision, but logic points towards one specific party especially since ED have stated they were not aware of any of this.

What I'm hoping for is for Ugra to reverse course if they are the ones behind this dispute and if not to refute this whole thing and point us towards who's responsible.

Wether it's Ugra or someone else, this sort of thing should happen before money has exchanged hands, I can understand looking out for your interest (even if ill advised and done in poor taste) but not like this, and not by depriving paying customers of what they paid for.

[-orlok-]

I think we. as end users, forget the risks of EA, stuff can change, be added to or removed. It's not just a way to get acess to cool stuff quick.

that said, there's been a definite misstep in communications and it hasn't helped that "other things" have recently occurred in the DCS space.

we know there's an ongoing issue (afaik) between the map makers and rightly or wrongly ED were unaware of the issue.

 

Let's keep on communicating to all parties that we'd like to see the removed content returned but let's not get too angry until we have all the facts as discussions are ongoing.

[QuiGon]

  On 8/10/2024 at 8:42 AM, Esac_mirmidon said:

Solution:

Let Ugra include South Israel in Siria map

Let ORT include North Israel in Sinaí map

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That would be the best solution, benefiting everyone!

Edited August 10, 2024 by QuiGon

[Laobi]

  On 8/10/2024 at 12:26 PM, Hawkeye_UK said:

Good lord and here was me thinking you had not been able to escape an S&M dungeon for the last year or two - good to see you still alive and surviving! 

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Hello Sir,

Great to hear from you, well, I didn't want to say, no one saw the beacon and the scars are healing...mostly.

[312_strycekFido]

Well this solves my dilemma about whether to buy this map or not.

[Thump]

This should have never been an issue to begin with when it was submitted for initial approval.a. As a customer, I saw the overlap IMMEDIATELY.  They all (ED & ORT) should have seen this issue comming from a mile away and never released it with that content.  They also can't just take away what was sold at time of purchase.  That would be the equivalent of chevy taking your tires back from your truck because Ford had them first a year after you bought your vehicle.  To top it off, they either tried to hide/ignore the move or they are incompetent in communication. Any way you slice it, ORT, ED, And now Urgas are ALL in the wrong.

Edited August 10, 2024 by Thump
Not sure what happened to this post

[Snoopy]

  On 8/10/2024 at 12:54 PM, Thump said:

This should have never been an issue to begin with when it was submitted for initial approval.a. As a customer, I saw the overlap IMMEDIATELY.  They all (ED & ORT) should have seen this issue comming from a mile away and never released it with that content.  They also can't just take away what was sold at time of purchase.  That would be the equivalent of chevy taking your tires back from your truck because Ford had them first a year after you bought your vehicle.  To top it off, they either tried to hide/ignore the move or they are incompetent in communication. Any way you slice it, ORT, ED, And now Urgas are ALL in the wrong.

 

Expand  

Everyone saw the overlap from day one and I remember people saying both Syria and Sinai should one map.  IMO that would be the best solution but don’t see that happening.

[Tom P]

Curious to know the numbers of servers and missions/campaigns that are now impacted by this.

[WTFCSon]

If there is some kind of legal reason to push Onretech to remove part of their product, customers deserve an official statement on the matter so that we can avoid any more he said/she said like what’s happening between ED and Razbam. You can have your sides internally, but we just want to fly cool planes and put warheads on foreheads in cool places.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[captain_kaoss]

If the third party conflict does relate to Ugra and the Syria Map I'm not sure how this situation benefits anyone. I'm sure most people who want the Syria map have purchased it previously like I have. Removing the Northern part of the Sinai map just pushes me to request a refund which penalises OnReTech

[Bigity]

  On 8/10/2024 at 12:35 PM, QuiGon said:

That would be the best solution, benefiting everyone!

 

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Except people who already bought the product that was gutted?

[gnomechild]

So Ugra complained about map encroachment a year after the fact, directly to OnReTech, and ORT removed content from the map immediately with no communication with customers. And throughout all of this nobody spoke to the company that actually owns and runs the game or thought that this was a completely terrible idea? 

Does this game feel like a bad joke to anyone else at times?

[Bareqk]

  On 8/10/2024 at 1:15 PM, gnomechild said:

So Ugra complained about map encroachment a year after the fact, directly to OnReTech, and ORT removed content from the map immediately with no communication with customers. And throughout all of this nobody spoke to the company that actually owns and runs the game or thought that this was a completely terrible idea? 

Does this game feel like a bad joke to anyone else at times?

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fact is they didnt even remove the overlapping, the maps still overlap... syria goes as low as middle israel, OnRetech cutted much higher then what ugra has moddeled

[intruder11]

Where does it say Ugra was the third party? A third party could also be a GIS data provider (licensing issue), or some other organization or agency...

[themastrofall]

  On 8/10/2024 at 7:34 AM, OnReTech said:

Have a nice day, friends.

We see your indignation about the northern part of Israel in our map. Yes, this part of the map was removed from the build intentionally.
This was the demand of a third party, in order to quickly resolve the conflict, it was decided to do just that.
We are very sorry about what happened and apologize for the fact that this was not covered in advance.
But the dialogue continues, the data was not been completely removed, but only been excluded for this build.
We are doing everything possible to approve the return of northern Israel in the nearest upcoming update.

Do not be so categorical and hasty in your conclusions.
We can't always do what we want, sometimes we have to do what we are required to do.

It is obvious that our goal cannot be "to make the map worse".

Expand  

You have the audacity to call it indignation when you remove something that has been paid and utilized for a whole year now? Because another 3rd Party Dev complained... yeah way to stand up for yourselves and your consumers, you're just as cheap as the next guy and have the audacity to come after the consumer when you took a 0 communication approach. Get off your high horse, you're working a game that you're helping to push into the grave with PR like this. Laughable joke, poor executive leadership, get a spine next time another 3rd party Dev complains and communicate with your consumers. Indignation.

  On 8/10/2024 at 1:53 PM, themastrofall said:

You have the audacity to call it indignation when you remove something that has been paid and utilized for a whole year now? Because another 3rd Party Dev complained... yeah way to stand up for yourselves and your consumers, you're just as cheap as the next guy and have the audacity to come after the consumer when you took a 0 communication approach. Get off your high horse, you're working a game that you're helping to push into the grave with PR like this. Laughable joke, poor executive leadership, get a spine next time another 3rd party Dev complains and communicate with your consumers. Indignation.

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@NineLinewhen we spoke at Expo you told me that there was a promising update for Sinai, i understand yall couldnt have anticipated this but come on. Thats a kick in the chin man

[Bigity]

  On 8/10/2024 at 1:49 PM, intruder11 said:

Where does it say Ugra was the third party? A third party could also be a GIS data provider (licensing issue), or some other organization or agency...

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[SignorMagnifico]

  On 8/10/2024 at 7:34 AM, OnReTech said:

Have a nice day, friends.

We see your indignation about the northern part of Israel in our map. Yes, this part of the map was removed from the build intentionally.
This was the demand of a third party, in order to quickly resolve the conflict, it was decided to do just that.
We are very sorry about what happened and apologize for the fact that this was not covered in advance.
But the dialogue continues, the data was not been completely removed, but only been excluded for this build.
We are doing everything possible to approve the return of northern Israel in the nearest upcoming update.

Do not be so categorical and hasty in your conclusions.
We can't always do what we want, sometimes we have to do what we are required to do.

It is obvious that our goal cannot be "to make the map worse".

Expand  

Which third party demanded it?

[cfrag]

IMHO, what we are witnessing is growing pains. This isn't the first internal dispute that has become an embarrassing public spectacle in the past 6 months, and it can happen if a company and their associates grow and are successful (which is good), and the way they work together can't adapt to new common requirements (which is bad), resulting in a decided lack of oversight. What ensues are squabbles (over money and personalities of course), and they boil to the surface, shaking the confidence of all customers into ED and their products.

I'm hoping that ED and their partners get together, hash out their differences, and allow the grown-ups to steer the newly forged, larger whole into less turbulent waters. What we are seeing does not look professional, and to many people (me included) perception is reality. The current reality seems bewildering to me, does not inspire confidence and makes me sad. Communication with customers has been the Achilles Heel for some time now, and maybe this can be the point where ED and their partners see the urgency of getting a significantly better grasp on customer communication and internal alignment with all partners. Customers want to hear ED and their partners speak with one voice, clear, and inspiringly. 

Here's to having a better second half of 2024. 

[SignorMagnifico]

I’m starting to see the picture that it was Ugra who demanded OnReTech to remove parts of the Sinai map people already paid for. Sorry, Ugra, but you don’t just get to change your mind after a year. BOTH of these maps are great. Please get your heads out of the sand and listen to ED’s customers. This really is not the time for third parties to be fighting with each other.

[Ebphoto]

  On 8/10/2024 at 7:34 AM, OnReTech said:

Have a nice day, friends.

We see your indignation about the northern part of Israel in our map. Yes, this part of the map was removed from the build intentionally.
This was the demand of a third party, in order to quickly resolve the conflict, it was decided to do just that.
We are very sorry about what happened and apologize for the fact that this was not covered in advance.
But the dialogue continues, the data was not been completely removed, but only been excluded for this build.
We are doing everything possible to approve the return of northern Israel in the nearest upcoming update.

Do not be so categorical and hasty in your conclusions.
We can't always do what we want, sometimes we have to do what we are required to do.

It is obvious that our goal cannot be "to make the map worse".

Expand  

Thank you for the update on this! There’s so much added to this map like Jerusalem and a TON of other things I hand t even noticed this happened. It’s not a big deal since this portion of the map is on the Syria map for now. Hopefully you guys can include it in the next update. Thank you for all the other things you’ve done to make this map totally awesome! People need to mellow out a little and stop the negativity being spread. It’s in Early Access so these things happen. Give them a break and go enjoy ALL the additional airports, oil rigs, harbors and a ton of other things!! It really is a fantastic map with so many places to see and make missions in! I was blown away when I saw what you’ve added and Jerusalem looks fantastic! So again thank you!

[munckmb]

Without Ramat David, Haifa and South Lebanon, I would not have bought this map.