Phantom Rudder Tips

[Omega417]

Hi Phanatics, I am entirely self taught how to fly in DCS, (No real world experience) mainly on the F/A-18 where you don't really need a lot of rudder to do stuff. If y'all could drop any tips or tricks to know how much rudder is enough for turns, coordinated flight, bringing the nose on target, and other applications.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[razo+r]

Basically, look at your ball/slip indicator. Make sure it stays centered. If it's centered, you are flying coordinated. If it's off, step on the rudder that is in the same direction as the ball/slip indicator. Literally the same principle as in every aircraft, including the F-18 (though that one cheats as the computer is helping you). 

As for how much rudder is needed to bring the nose onto target is literally impossible to say. Every situation is different requiring different amount of rudder. That's something only you can learn by practise and trial and error. 

[Zabuzard]

Might be worth mentioning that the Phantom computer also helps you out a bit already using the ARI.
(Which can be disabled by pulling the CB on the pilots left sub panel)

[Cat107]

F-4 is a pretty old plane, however it still features systems which assist you in controlling the aircraft. Although they are not as advanced and not as strong/present as in some more modern FBW planes like F/A-18 for example.

In case of rudder, the first element is AFCS (Automatic Flight Control System) AN/ASA-32 which features yaw stability augmentation function. I won't go too much into details here, but generally it prevents yaw oscillations and helps in coordinating the turns. Another thing is ARI (Aileron-Rudder Interconnect) system which further helps in coordinating the low-speed turns but it works only with slats flap switch in the OUT AND DOWN position, and the airspeed below the flap blowup speed (230 knots). To disable the first one you can flip the yaw stab aug switch on AFCS panel and to disable ARI you can pull out the CB as @Zabuzard said. If you would like to learn more about these systems, I would recommend:

• This chapter of our manual: https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/systems/flight_controls_gear/flight_controls.html
• And this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXsTlmokAlQ.

While these systems are helping you, the F-4 is still very "manual" and the rudder usage is important, especially in high AOA situations (similarly as in F-14). To understand that, I would really recommend watching this real life instructional video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZiduQboyow. It explains different aerodynamic effects and teaches when and how you should employ rudder. And after you watch this I would say: practice, practice, practice . As @razo+r said, you have to fly and experiment to get the feel of this beast 

If you have any further questions, feel free

Edited August 28, 2024 by Cat107

[Nealius]

Around the 8-minute mark on the second video that Cat107 posted (Flight Characteristics) does an excellent job at clearly and concretely defining when you need to start watching that ball and using the rudder to coordinate your roll: "...but, once you reach 15 units AoA, you need to start applying rudder in order to coordinate your roll." 

Also at 10:09: "...up to 15 units, you can fly without using your rudders" followed by reinforcing the importance of rudders above 15 units. 

Rudder usage is a lot easier than online discussions and airframe mythos make it out to be once clearly defined like this. The challenge from my perspective is location of the Phantom's AoA and slip indicators, and translating that heads-down information into heads-up muscle memory, which just takes time and practice.

Edited August 28, 2024 by Nealius

[ricktoberfest]

22 hours ago, Omega417 said:

Hi Phanatics, I am entirely self taught how to fly in DCS, (No real world experience) mainly on the F/A-18 where you don't really need a lot of rudder to do stuff. If y'all could drop any tips or tricks to know how much rudder is enough for turns, coordinated flight, bringing the nose on target, and other applications.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

As a side note to all the F4 info, the rudder on the F18 is a very powerful dogfighting flight control. At low speed you can spin the aircraft around on its yaw axis while diving on a turning contact below you. It’s well worth learning how to use the rudder even in fully digital airframes.

[LG_Barons]

Am 28.8.2024 um 03:42 schrieb Nealius:

Around the 8-minute mark on the second video that Cat107 posted (Flight Characteristics) does an excellent job at clearly and concretely defining when you need to start watching that ball and using the rudder to coordinate your roll: "...but, once you reach 15 units AoA, you need to start applying rudder in order to coordinate your roll." 

Also at 10:09: "...up to 15 units, you can fly without using your rudders" followed by reinforcing the importance of rudders above 15 units. 

Rudder usage is a lot easier than online discussions and airframe mythos make it out to be once clearly defined like this. The challenge from my perspective is location of the Phantom's AoA and slip indicators, and translating that heads-down information into heads-up muscle memory, which just takes time and practice.

 

The Movie is more or less spot on. The most important thing to remember is to fly AOA and the good thing is, you fly the F-4 by "EAR". The most important tool is the aural tone warning. Do not ever turn that volume down. You do not have to look at the gauges at all. To max perform the aircraft fly always "on tone". However basically only 3 values are important. Unload to 3 to 8 Units to get you energy back. 19.2 Units on Final Approach and 25 Units to get "around the corner" in Dogfight. Airspeed does not really matter. Energy Management is more important.

no Rudder is used below 20 units. At 25 units do not use Aileron anymore. Only Rudder because otherwise you will loose control. 

Good old BFM skills are required (hi Yoyo, low yoyo, Lag Rolls etc.) The F-4 is not a "Rate-Fighter" and definitely not digital at all. Feel and hear all the way. Forcefeedback joysticks really help out but you will most probably loose any Fight against a more modern Fighter.

Technique for BFM is : switch of the ROLL -AUG, lock the Slats out, and yes you could pull the CB for the ARI but there are not real benefits from that.

 

[MichaelJWP15]

I find this the weirdest thing about the Phantom. No other aircraft I have flown (sim or real life) you would roll using the rudder alone.. takes some getting used to!

[LG_Barons]

Well, in DCS you can fly the F-4 however you see fit. Do what you want with the control inputs. IN RL you better do not use the Ailerons (and Spoilers) during high AOA maneuvering. See this again. at around minute 11...  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZiduQboyow

If you know what you are doing, you can use all inputs to get you really quick out of a defense tracking solution, i.e loosing instantly control, do a snap roll entry into a spin. Highly effective guns jink.

Edited October 6, 2024 by LG_Barons

[Hiob]

On 10/5/2024 at 1:27 PM, MichaelJWP15 said:

I find this the weirdest thing about the Phantom. No other aircraft I have flown (sim or real life) you would roll using the rudder alone.. takes some getting used to!

The Tomcat  rolls with rudder on high AoA. Sim and RL.

[Smokin1469]

Well, I like to shy away from blanket statements like "The Phantom rolls with rudder at high AoA".  Keep in mind that we're dealing with three distinctly different birds here.

DISCLAIMER: I have no significant time in the Phantom IRL.  I just put a lot of faith in the flight manual when that is the case.  

First is the hard wing Phantom, which we simulate in Reflected's excellent campaign "MiG Killers".  According to the F-4 C/D flight manual, you "must use rudder to produce roll" at elevated AoA.  Otherwise you're likely to depart controlled flight.  

Second is the slatted E, which is the "normal" Phantom we fly in DCS.  Flight manual is very clear, stating several times that the optimum roll performance at high AoA is obtained with "a combination of aileron and rudder in the direction of turn".  It also states that adverse yaw, a prime contributor to departing controlled flight in the hard wing Phantom, is "negligible".   

Third is the DCS Phantom.  To what level of fidelity did Heatblur model the high AoA and departure characteristics of the Phantom? Does it really fly like a hard wing when you lock out the slats? The only way to find out is to experiment for yourself at high AoA with slats in normal, and again with slats locked out.  I think Heatblur did a wonderful job with their flight model.  It's just my opinion but they probably have the best flight model outside of the "official" sim.  

Bottom line ( for me anyway) is that for max immersion (and maybe fun) fly the DCS Phantom the way you would the real one: rudder only at high AoA in the hard wing, and combination of aileron and rudder in the slatted E.  

[Kalasnkova74]

13 hours ago, Smokin1469 said:

Well, I like to shy away from blanket statements like "The Phantom rolls with rudder at high AoA".  Keep in mind that we're dealing with three distinctly different birds here.

DISCLAIMER: I have no significant time in the Phantom IRL.  I just put a lot of faith in the flight manual when that is the case.  

First is the hard wing Phantom, which we simulate in Reflected's excellent campaign "MiG Killers".  According to the F-4 C/D flight manual, you "must use rudder to produce roll" at elevated AoA.  Otherwise you're likely to depart controlled flight.  

Second is the slatted E, which is the "normal" Phantom we fly in DCS.  Flight manual is very clear, stating several times that the optimum roll performance at high AoA is obtained with "a combination of aileron and rudder in the direction of turn".  It also states that adverse yaw, a prime contributor to departing controlled flight in the hard wing Phantom, is "negligible".   

Third is the DCS Phantom.  To what level of fidelity did Heatblur model the high AoA and departure characteristics of the Phantom? Does it really fly like a hard wing when you lock out the slats? The only way to find out is to experiment for yourself at high AoA with slats in normal, and again with slats locked out.  I think Heatblur did a wonderful job with their flight model.  It's just my opinion but they probably have the best flight model outside of the "official" sim.  

Bottom line ( for me anyway) is that for max immersion (and maybe fun) fly the DCS Phantom the way you would the real one: rudder only at high AoA in the hard wing, and combination of aileron and rudder in the slatted E.  

One point to note- I dont consider it prudent to equate the performance of an F-4E with slats locked in to that of a USN / Royal Navy/ USAF F-4C/D. 

First, the -E differs from those variants in overall configuration, which in turn affects nose authority and other handling traits. The addition of an approximately 1,000lb cannon & accessories in the nose , plus the additional fuel tank in the tail, means the -E handles differently even without taking the wing into account. 

Next, the drag and lift characteristics of the non-slat wing differ from the slatted one beyond just the obvious adverse yaw aspects.

Between the different nose authority and higher drag of the slatted wing- even with the slats stowed-  we cannot collectively assume they handle the same.

While we probably shouldn’t assume a Naval & land based slatted Phantom II handle the same, we can still conclude using the rudder is a good skill to have. If there’s a slats disagree situation or battle damage inhibiting operation, you might be landing without the benefit of the slats - so you’re right back to flying the F-4E like it’s a big F-100. 

[Nealius]

Every aircraft rolls with rudder deflection at high AoA, does it not? And official, period training videos make the same “blanket statement”, so I fail to see the issue here. 

[=475FG= Dawger]

11 hours ago, Nealius said:

Every aircraft rolls with rudder deflection at high AoA, does it not? And official, period training videos make the same “blanket statement”, so I fail to see the issue here. 

High AoA isn't required. Rudder induces roll for a variety of reasons present on all aircraft to some degree or another. High AoA is where it is most prominent and useful.

One of the techniques I used quite a lot when flying aircraft without autopilot was to keep the wings level with my feet if I needed both hands for something. This was always in cruise flight.

[RustBelt]

7 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

High AoA isn't required. Rudder induces roll for a variety of reasons present on all aircraft to some degree or another. High AoA is where it is most prominent and useful.

One of the techniques I used quite a lot when flying aircraft without autopilot was to keep the wings level with my feet if I needed both hands for something. This was always in cruise flight.

Heck, the earliest airplanes didn’t even really have roll control beyond some marginally effective wing warping. Ailerons were a big deal when they started being put on planes a few years after the first powered flight.

[Nealius]

10 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

High AoA isn't required. Rudder induces roll for a variety of reasons present on all aircraft to some degree or another.

Different context than what we are discussing, but yes. Adding to what RustBelt said, plus the context of this discussion (rudder use for roll at high alpha, NOT rudder use in general), going way back to even the A6M, you can see the rudder is located noticeably aft of the horizontal stab, no doubt increasing rudder effectiveness at high-AoA; which is oddly often overshadowed by discussions of the A6M's faults.

Edited October 9, 2024 by Nealius

[LG_Barons]

Am 7.10.2024 um 04:35 schrieb Smokin1469:

Well, I like to shy away from blanket statements like "The Phantom rolls with rudder at high AoA".  Keep in mind that we're dealing with three distinctly different birds here.

DISCLAIMER: I have no significant time in the Phantom IRL.  I just put a lot of faith in the flight manual when that is the case.  

First is the hard wing Phantom, which we simulate in Reflected's excellent campaign "MiG Killers".  According to the F-4 C/D flight manual, you "must use rudder to produce roll" at elevated AoA.  Otherwise you're likely to depart controlled flight.  

Second is the slatted E, which is the "normal" Phantom we fly in DCS.  Flight manual is very clear, stating several times that the optimum roll performance at high AoA is obtained with "a combination of aileron and rudder in the direction of turn".  It also states that adverse yaw, a prime contributor to departing controlled flight in the hard wing Phantom, is "negligible".   

Third is the DCS Phantom.  To what level of fidelity did Heatblur model the high AoA and departure characteristics of the Phantom? Does it really fly like a hard wing when you lock out the slats? The only way to find out is to experiment for yourself at high AoA with slats in normal, and again with slats locked out.  I think Heatblur did a wonderful job with their flight model.  It's just my opinion but they probably have the best flight model outside of the "official" sim.  

Bottom line ( for me anyway) is that for max immersion (and maybe fun) fly the DCS Phantom the way you would the real one: rudder only at high AoA in the hard wing, and combination of aileron and rudder in the slatted E.  

Disclaimer: Actually I have significant time in the Phantom IRL... you unfortunately miss understand the function of the slats. You don´t lock them in, you lock them out. It is than not a "hard wing" F-4. The Slats gave you around 5 units AOA. That gives you a couple of degrees turning performance. 
The main reason for locking the slat out, do not really matter in the Game, because you do not feel the sudden G-spike when the slat come out. It was easier the max perform the aircraft. For example you will probably over G the aircraft if you will do a max G-Brake turn, because the Slats will suddenly add about 1 G. 

Well, there is no maintenance Guy screaming at you. You don not have to report to you Flight Safety guy or to you commanding Officer.
You most probably do not even know that you just over-G the aircraft, because you do not feel it and that´s why it is just a game. Some say it is even a good simulator.

But no even close flying the real thing. Sorry to disappoint you all. Just fly how you want. Play the game how you like it, enjoy, have fun. And do not get overly concerned how the aircraft has to be flown. And I totally agree with you, HeatBlur did a fantastic job so far. But still room for improvement. Pitch Trim for example is a little bit weird. IRL you really fly the Phantom with your butt and ears because the airframe really talks to you, with vibrations, noises and stick-forces. You cannot simulate that only to a limited extend with may be a buttkicker and FFB joystick.

Anyway just have fun playing the game how you like it. I do, gives me some nice memories back.

cheers

LG 

[Snappy]

On 10/2/2024 at 3:07 PM, LG_Barons said:

The Movie is more or less spot on. The most important thing to remember is to fly AOA and the good thing is, you fly the F-4 by "EAR". The most important tool is the aural tone warning. Do not ever turn that volume down. You do not have to look at the gauges at all. To max perform the aircraft fly always "on tone". However basically only 3 values are important. Unload to 3 to 8 Units to get you energy back. 19.2 Units on Final Approach and 25 Units to get "around the corner" in Dogfight. Airspeed does not really matter. Energy Management is more important.

no Rudder is used below 20 units. At 25 units do not use Aileron anymore. Only Rudder because otherwise you will loose control. 

Good old BFM skills are required (hi Yoyo, low yoyo, Lag Rolls etc.) The F-4 is not a "Rate-Fighter" and definitely not digital at all. Feel and hear all the way. Forcefeedback joysticks really help out but you will most probably loose any Fight against a more modern Fighter.

Technique for BFM is : switch of the ROLL -AUG, lock the Slats out, and yes you could pull the CB for the ARI but there are not real benefits from that.

 

Just out of curiosity, since you mentioned your IRL experience and stated that the Phantom is not a Rate-fighter.

What kind of fight did you try to go for then? Surely not radius?

I mean I get that a lot depends on the adversary’s type of aircraft, but what was your preferred game-plan once you got into a visual close range engagement?

Stay in the vertical?

Edited October 11, 2024 by Snappy

[Dragon1-1]

On 10/9/2024 at 2:30 AM, RustBelt said:

Heck, the earliest airplanes didn’t even really have roll control beyond some marginally effective wing warping. Ailerons were a big deal when they started being put on planes a few years after the first powered flight.

Even on the earliest aircraft, you used wing warping to turn. In fact, the Wright Brothers' big innovation was rolling into the turn, as opposed to trying to turn the Flyer like a boat. It was always combined with rudder at that time, of course, but you always needed both, early planes were quite a handful to keep going where you wanted them to go. Ailerons were a big deal, but they didn't fundamentally change the way aircraft were flown, but rather allowed doing it with much less effort. In WWI aircraft you had to use the rudder to get them to roll at anywhere near combat rates, but those were flown with all your extremities and your rear end as well, more or less at all times (especially rotaries, what with the huge spinning mass in front and their otherwise diminutive size).

The reason you only use the rudder to roll in the Tomcat at high AoA is that it doesn't have ailerons. What it does have is spoilerons, which induce roll by decreasing the lift on the appropriate wing, something you can't afford at high AoA, because they'll stall that wing and send you spinning. It's somewhat similar with the Phantom, it does have ailerons, but at high AoA, it needs all the lift the main wing provides, and any deflection there risks stalling one.

[=475FG= Dawger]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Even on the earliest aircraft, you used wing warping to turn. In fact, the Wright Brothers' big innovation was rolling into the turn, as opposed to trying to turn the Flyer like a boat. It was always combined with rudder at that time, of course, but you always needed both, early planes were quite a handful to keep going where you wanted them to go. Ailerons were a big deal, but they didn't fundamentally change the way aircraft were flown, but rather allowed doing it with much less effort. In WWI aircraft you had to use the rudder to get them to roll at anywhere near combat rates, but those were flown with all your extremities and your rear end as well, more or less at all times (especially rotaries, what with the huge spinning mass in front and their otherwise diminutive size).

The reason you only use the rudder to roll in the Tomcat at high AoA is that it doesn't have ailerons. What it does have is spoilerons, which induce roll by decreasing the lift on the appropriate wing, something you can't afford at high AoA, because they'll stall that wing and send you spinning. It's somewhat similar with the Phantom, it does have ailerons, but at high AoA, it needs all the lift the main wing provides, and any deflection there risks stalling one.

The up aileron does precisely the same thing as a spoiler which is why every pilot everywhere is taught to keep the stick neutral in the roll axis at high AoA/Stall recovery. 

[Dragon1-1]

Well, FBW aircraft can avoid scheduling ailerons at high AoA and use only differential tail, which mitigates this problem. Hornet, for example, with its legendary slow speed maneuverability. Tomcat does that to some extent, too, but since it doesn't lock out the spoilers, that doesn't help much (though to its credit, small stick deflections are OK, just as long as spoilers stay down). It's true for all aircraft that can't do things like that, though.

Edited October 12, 2024 by Dragon1-1

[LG_Barons]

Am 11.10.2024 um 06:54 schrieb Snappy:

Just out of curiosity, since you mentioned your IRL experience and stated that the Phantom is not a Rate-fighter.

What kind of fight did you try to go for then? Surely not radius?

I mean I get that a lot depends on the adversary’s type of aircraft, but what was your preferred game-plan once you got into a visual close range engagement?

Stay in the vertical?

 

yes, use the vertical and classic BFM. Usually we could not keep up with the F-4 against other Aircraft. In the F-4F we had AMRAAMs. So dogfighting was last resort. What we were really good at, was getting slow really fast. Forcing an overshoot and get a missile off after that, light the burners, getting low on deck and go home. No turning fight against everything with a higher number as a 4 in the name.

[Snappy]

20 hours ago, LG_Barons said:

yes, use the vertical and classic BFM. Usually we could not keep up with the F-4 against other Aircraft. In the F-4F we had AMRAAMs. So dogfighting was last resort. What we were really good at, was getting slow really fast. Forcing an overshoot and get a missile off after that, light the burners, getting low on deck and go home. No turning fight against everything with a higher number as a 4 in the name.

Interesting stuff, thanks a lot for explaining! Have a good week!