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Autopilot not working

Mr. Wilson

By Mr. Wilson
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Mr. Wilson

Mr. Wilson

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Posted

The latest update added the ability to reset the dead zone in the control axes. The problem is that if you set the dead zones assignment to zero, then during a hot start in the air the autopilot works, but during a cold start on the ground it always does not work. On the track - It's very visible




Autopilot.trk

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Yaga

Yaga

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Posted

I'm not sure I understand why a 0 deadzone would cause A/P to disengage. This input would just be the noise normally filtered out, at worst. If this noise is enough to disengage A/P, it seems like you'd be focused on the jet being unflyable.

The A/P tolerates some maneuvering within limits. 

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Mr. Wilson

Mr. Wilson

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11 часов назад, NineLine сказал:

I do not see any issue on my end, make sure you watch the Wags video on the subject. Setting a deadzone to only 0 can result in the AP kicking off if there is even a slight spike in the joystick input.  

 

Do you mean you refuse to fix it? I don't quite understand why you have this position. When you hot start the plane in the air, the Autopilot works absolutely normally and correctly, but during a cold start on the ground, the Autopilot refuses to work... Based on this, it is not entirely clear - Why don't you want to fix this so that we can normally use the new feature? 

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PawlaczGMD

PawlaczGMD

Posted
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, NineLine said:

I do not see any issue on my end, make sure you watch the Wags video on the subject. Setting a deadzone to only 0 can result in the AP kicking off if there is even a slight spike in the joystick input.  

 

This is a problem on many jets, I know it bothers me a lot in the Hornet.

What needs to be  implemented is not an input deadzone, which is useless, as you can set it separately on your hardware.

We need to have an input breakout setting, which is brilliantly implemented in the F-4 Phantom.

What it does is sets a deadzone not for inputs, but for kicking you out of autopilot modes only. It is not a deadzone, but a limit to where the AP will ignore inputs when on, and disconnect when exceeded. This might be an issue only on some hardware where you don't have a hardware deadzone. I hate hardware deadzones and would like to have it at 0, but this messes with autopilot modes on many modules.

PS, I think having "realistic" deadzones is a bit useless, as we have our unique HOTAS devices, and not the real plane stick connected to the real force transducers. And I don't know if the real jets have an input deadzone, but I definitely don't believe that tiny inputs would mess with the autopilot. 

1 hour ago, Yaga said:

I'm not sure I understand why a 0 deadzone would cause A/P to disengage. This input would just be the noise normally filtered out, at worst. If this noise is enough to disengage A/P, it seems like you'd be focused on the jet being unflyable.

The A/P tolerates some maneuvering within limits. 

You would think, but some jets don't filter tiny inputs, and it does mess with AP modes.

Edited by PawlaczGMD
MAXsenna

MAXsenna

Posted
Posted
On 10/6/2024 at 4:51 AM, Mr. Wilson said:

The latest update added the ability to reset the dead zone in the control axes. The problem is that if you set the dead zones assignment to zero, then during a hot start in the air the autopilot works, but during a cold start on the ground it always does not work. On the track - It's very visible




Autopilot.trk

I have set mine to zero in both pitch and roll. No issues with the A/P for me. 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

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PawlaczGMD

PawlaczGMD

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

I have set mine to zero in both pitch and roll. No issues with the A/P for me. 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

Do you have a deadzone on hardware level? Most HOTAS will have it on by default, which might be forced. Some don't. I haven't checked the Viper yet, as I just got it, but it sounds like I have the same issue on the Hornet. People seem to not understand the problem because they have different hardware.

PawlaczGMD

PawlaczGMD

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Yaga said:

The report shows different behavior between hot/cold starts. This is not hardware related. 

It might be if some people have 0 hardware deadzones, and others don't so they don't see this. There might be an extra bug specific to F-16 on top of it. Regardless, I think it would be a great option to add breakout settings to all aircraft with this autopilot behavior, if not already implemented. For example, if I have no deadzone, it is impossible to engage ACLS on the F-18.

Edited by PawlaczGMD
MAXsenna

MAXsenna

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Yaga said:

The report shows different behavior between hot/cold starts. This is not hardware related. 

He better come up with a track where it's not working then. Don't you think? 😉

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MAXsenna

MAXsenna

Posted
Posted
24 minutes ago, PawlaczGMD said:

Do you have a deadzone on hardware level? Most HOTAS will have it on by default, which might be forced. Some don't. I haven't checked the Viper yet, as I just got it, but it sounds like I have the same issue on the Hornet. People seem to not understand the problem because they have different hardware.

I understand it fine. OP didn't disclose what he has. Yeah, I've heard about the issues in the Hornet. Didn't bother with my MS FFB2, as that one ha a HUGE hardware deadzone. Tried with my VPC CM2 too. Couldn't see any difference.

As for the TM.16K I use in the Viper. It probably has one too. I just don't know how to turn it off. The data changes if I barely touch it. So it's tiny in any case.

I do see your point. Other 3rd parties have elected to have slider where you can choose the "breakout force"/percentage of deflection where the AP disconnects. Should be the standard in every module. You agree? 😉

Cheers!

 

 

image.png 

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PawlaczGMD

PawlaczGMD

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

I understand it fine. OP didn't disclose what he has. Yeah, I've heard about the issues in the Hornet. Didn't bother with my MS FFB2, as that one ha a HUGE hardware deadzone. Tried with my VPC CM2 too. Couldn't see any difference.

As for the TM.16K I use in the Viper. It probably has one too. I just don't know how to turn it off. The data changes if I barely touch it. So it's tiny in any case.

I do see your point. Other 3rd parties have elected to have slider where you can choose the "breakout force"/percentage of deflection where the AP disconnects. Should be the standard in every module. You agree? 😉

Cheers!

 

 

image.png

Thanks, yes, I agree. it is just frustrating, as I asked for this in 2 other threads, and ED didn't seem to see/acknowledge the problem.

For me in the F-18:

no deadzone: weird AP behavior, impossible to engage ACLS.

Some deadzone: works fine, but I don't want an input deadzone.  

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TobiasA

TobiasA

Posted
Posted

It is not.

In the F-16, you can actually move the stick to quite some amount and even temporarily override the AP. When you let go, it will resume the AP.
Conditions to disable the pitch switch (see HAF F-16 manual 1-135 and following, publically available but never than 1980 so I am not allowed to post it here):

  • AIR REFUEL switch - OPEN.
  • ALT FLAPS switch - EXTEND (below 400 knots).
  • A/P FAIL PFL occurs.
  • AOA greater than 15 degrees.
  • DBU - Engaged.
  • LG handle - DN.
  • Low speed warning tone sounds.
  • MPO switch - OVRD.
  • STBY GAIN PFL occurs.
  • TRIM/AP DISC switch - DISC.

Additionally, it will disable the AP if you roll over 60 degrees bank angle, but the manual isn't clear there.
Which is exactly the way the DCS Viper behaves if you leave the dead zones at the default values. See track attached. The paddle will temporarily disable the autopilot while held, resuming with the parameters it had when releasing it (just moving the stick will have the AP returning to the values it had before moving the stick). Even Wags is not correct in his video.
But the implementation is correct, according to publically available documentation.

See attached track with me moving the stick with the autopilot enabled- you will even see the stick moving if you look closely. AP stays enabled until I command a full roll, disabling the pitch switch by exceeding the bank angle. This behaviour is correct imho. Unsure about if it disables the AP when you lower the gear though.

However, the criteria for disabling the autopilot without the FLCS dead zones seems to be wrong. If you leave everything at default, it works as it should. It does on my end, and I did not touch the deadzones- I am on the FLCS defaults.

There is no need for special settings regarding the autopilot. PLEASE don't adapt other airframe's logic to the F-16, it is pretty unique in that point as it was one of the first airplanes with a FLCS.

AP test.trk

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NineLine

NineLine

Posted
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Posted
11 hours ago, Mr. Wilson said:

Do you mean you refuse to fix it? I don't quite understand why you have this position. When you hot start the plane in the air, the Autopilot works absolutely normally and correctly, but during a cold start on the ground, the Autopilot refuses to work... Based on this, it is not entirely clear - Why don't you want to fix this so that we can normally use the new feature? 

Where did I ever say we refused to fix anything? I simply asked to check with the suggestion I included. Now the thread has expanded I will have to investigate further, but to be clear, I am not personally seeing this. Thanks.

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Mr. Wilson

Mr. Wilson

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2 часа назад, NineLine сказал:

Where did I ever say we refused to fix anything? I simply asked to check with the suggestion I included. Now the thread has expanded I will have to investigate further, but to be clear, I am not personally seeing this. Thanks.

Nice ) For research, could you look at my Track? everything is very clearly visible there...

Mr. Wilson

Mr. Wilson

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13 часов назад, MAXsenna сказал:

I have set mine to zero in both pitch and roll. No issues with the A/P for me. 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

this sounds very strange... do you do this on cold start? could you send a screenshot of your settings? i would like to make sure if we do it exactly the same or not...

MAXsenna

MAXsenna

Posted
Posted
Nice ) For research, could you look at my Track? everything is very clearly visible there...
Read your OP again. You say it works in a hotstart, and you provide a track of a hotstart. You should provide a coldstart track.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

MAXsenna

MAXsenna

Posted
Posted
this sounds very strange... do you do this on cold start? could you send a screenshot of your settings? i would like to make sure if we do it exactly the same or not...
Yes, cold start in Bodø.
Screenshot of the special settings you mean.
To be totally fair, I don't notice any difference with the new settings. Had a go at the Caucasus AAR mission for the first time in months. Easy peacy.
Like TobiasA wrote, you're supposed to be able to move the stick around, even with the AP on. Something else must be going on. I highly recommend to provide a coldstart track.
I'll get a screenshot.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

Mr. Wilson

Mr. Wilson

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4 минуты назад, MAXsenna сказал:

Read your OP again. You say it works in a hotstart, and you provide a track of a hotstart. You should provide a coldstart track.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

you haven't watched my track to the end there is both a hot and a cold start please be careful...

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