no evidence The wobbly flight model

[BIGNEWY]

4 minutes ago, Pilum said:

Yes, but what's happening here now never seems to fail: I've seen this also in WW1 & WW2 sim forums: People spend hundreds, if not thousands of hours mastering these in-game FM's and I can understand that with so much invested, you don't want to hear that what you are flying is unrealistic.

please include a track replay and any evidence it is wrong. We are happy to investigate your claims if there is evidence to back it up. 

thank you 

[Pilum]

7 minutes ago, Phantom711 said:

@Vakarian

Yes…but this is a DCS forum where even my answer referencing 2 RL F/A-18 pilots is not enough evidence…

Yes, I'm sure they told you that hooking up to a tanker in DCS is spot on right? I mean, that our eyes are lying to us when we compare those videos right? 

[Pillowcat]

"Rails" in FM was a simulation of tendency to snap airfoils with airflow in stabilized position, and here we have aerodynamically unstable fly-by-wire jet which probably have less of that effect. Agreed with feeling a bit too much wobbliness strange for fbw f16/18 jets in DCS, but why should i know, presume such is it as ED devs must to know better and no real drivers has complain.

[Phantom711]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Pilum:

Yes, I'm sure they told you that hooking up to a tanker in DCS is spot on right? I mean, that our eyes are lying to us when we compare those videos right? 

I told you what they said. I also gave away the caveat that they haven‘t flown in DCS for a while. I also gave you THEIR explanation, why these things feel a bit off in DCS or simulators in general (even the million $ military ones).

You make it sound like you think that I just talked to my imaginary pilot friends…

[BIGNEWY]

please keep the discussion here about DCS, it will save any confusion, and we really dont want to debate other sims. 

thank you 

[SharpeXB]

It should be obvious but most players’ controllers in these games are nothing like the real thing. They’re spring centered sticks and even on an extension just don’t replicate the actual feel. Force feedback is rare but making a comeback. You’d need that and an extended stick in order to replicate real controls. For example I understand the real Spitfire stick only moves 1/4” in the pitch axis for normal flight. Replicating this with a spring joystick is going to result in a very bouncy feeling plane. 
These comments about wobbly planes aren’t new to flight sims. But without specific data they’re rather pointless. 

[Pilum]

30 minutes ago, Vakarian said:

You seem to be forgetting that in the sim you don't have cues you would get from the real aircraft so you can only react to the visual cues (and be proactive as you should know to expect). That's a reason why it's so much easier to get into the PIO in the sim than it is IRL. You said that you are a IRL pilot so you should be aware of that. On the other hand, as the others have demonstrated here it can be mitigated through a lot of practice. In other words, it's really nothing else than (gaming) skill issue. From all your human sensors, you are reduced to only one when flying in the sim, ofc it's going to be harder.

A very good point. We lack the seat-of-the pants and depth perception feedback which is very important IR. However, that does not change the facts of how aircraft in sims generally behave compare to IRL, and that they do tend to wobble more in sims. And TBH, I find it amazing that people can't see the rapid precise movements in the IRL videos I posted and how this differs from in-game.

But to get back to in-game: Even without the IRL feedback, it should in a well behaved FM be perfectly possible to fly without getting into PIO's based only on visual input as a flight marker on the HUD or a canopy rim versus horizon/tanker or such like. And in many sims, this can be controlled just fine at higher speeds, but not when you are going slow, which is just what we are seeing in DCS.

PIO occurs when the pilot input is lagging or leading the aircraft's tendency which the pilot is trying to correct. At higher speeds this is not an issue in-game either, but for some reason this is occurring in-game at lower speeds while as we can see from the F-18 videos I posted, it's not IRL.

[SharpeXB]

10 minutes ago, Pilum said:

But to get back to in-game: Even without the IRL feedback, it should in a well behaved FM be perfectly possible to fly without getting into PIO's based only on visual input as a flight marker on the HUD or a canopy rim versus horizon/tanker or such like.

It is, it just takes practice. 

[Pilum]

17 minutes ago, Phantom711 said:

I told you what they said. I also gave away the caveat that they haven‘t flown in DCS for a while. I also gave you THEIR explanation, why these things feel a bit off in DCS or simulators in general (even the million $ military ones).

You make it sound like you think that I just talked to my imaginary pilot friends…

No, I'm not saying that, and I would be very interested in hearing their take on how air to air refueling in DCS compares to IRL. That being said, I do trust what my eyes tell me, but if you can get them to join and weigh in that would of course be great.

And for sure, PIO do exist also IRL as well. In fact, this was why both the first and the second JAS39 Gripen prototypes crashed: There was a known issue with the FBW FCS (which was still in testing) and both the pilot (the unfortunate Lars Rådeström crashed both) and the FCS were both trying to correct the same deviations leading to these being overlaid in the FCS without the proper filtering which in turn lead to PIO’s and divergence (especially in the first crash). I actually worked on the Gripen at the time (EW systems, not FCS, and hence my Viking Crow sig) but I still got to know a bit about those issues and how they were solved, and I can tell you that the type of PIO behavior we have in-game now when trying to hook up to a tanker would never have passed muster.

But getting back to the game, just do a sanity check: What do you think would happen with a bit of turbulence added to the tanker basket in the current in-game scenario? Would you be able to mirror those rather rapid in-close adjustments the Growler pilot did when he was basically in the basket? I really doubt it with the current wobbly FM.....

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It is, it just takes practice. 

You obviously have not been reading my other posts: I've said it time and again: I do tanker hookups in the F-18 myself but due to the wobbly FM I don't find it realistic, that's all.

[SharpeXB]

36 minutes ago, Pilum said:

You obviously have not been reading my other posts: I've said it time and again: I do tanker hookups in the F-18 myself but due to the wobbly FM I don't find it realistic, that's all.

You do realize how ridiculous your post is right? You’ve never flown a real Hornet and don’t have any actual supporting data but you’re asking the Devs to spin their wheels fixing the flight model And you’re bringing this up as if they haven’t already heard these things before and spent a lot of effort trying to get this stuff right and no doubt with input from actual SMEs. Plus you’re using a PC game controller that’s nothing like the real thing. You watched a YouTube video and it looks easy there, so something must be wrong with DCS…

Such topic are really a tedious occurrence in these games. I’d think you would know that by now, you don’t seem new to flight sims.

Like BN already said. If you have a track and actual data please post it. 

Edited December 2, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Pilum]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

You do realize how ridiculous your post is right? You’ve never flown a real Hornet and don’t have any actual supporting data but you’re asking the Devs to spin their wheels fixing the flight model And you’re bringing this up as if they haven’t already heard these things before and spent a lot of effort trying to get this stuff right and no doubt with input from actual SMEs. Plus you’re using a PC game controller that’s nothing like the real thing. You watched a YouTube video and it looks easy there, so something must be wrong with DCS…

Such topic are really a tedious occurrence in these games. I’d think you would know that by now, you don’t seem new to flight sims.

Like BN already said. If you have a track and actual data please post it. 

Well with regards to ridiculous, I find simmers who's feelings are hurt just because somebody points out that what they have mastered is nothing more than a virtual flight sim FM, and that this may not fully represent how aircraft behave IRL tedious.

And the OP was never meant as a dig at DCS in general or the F-18 module: I love it and think it's great fun flying it. Just be ready to accept that it may not always exactly replicate IRL.

The nice thing is though, in many cases you can find good info from open sources. You just have to be willing to accept it when you see it.....

But I think this thread has just about run its coarse for me: I just wanted to get input on WHY the in-game FM was wobblier than IRL. Not be informed I need different equipment or spend more time practicing to master it.

On a tangent, I mentioned earlier on that I have a past working with EW systems. In fact, I worked with the EW systems for AJ 37, JA 37 Viggen and the JAS 39 Gripen, and without divulging any sensitive information, I can tell you that the EW as modeled in DCS in terms of how radars and jammers interact is not actually how it would have worked in the time span that the F-18 we have in-game was operational. IRL it's far more sophisticated.

But this is a game and just enjoy it for what it is. Some parts are great, but your milage will vary.

So just for a minute try to contemplate, that what is true for EW in-game may also be true for the current DCS FM's. But if you can't, then fine by me, I have no horse in this race......

Edited December 2, 2024 by Pilum

[SharpeXB]

41 minutes ago, Pilum said:

I find simmers who's feelings are hurt just because somebody points out that what they have mastered is nothing more than a virtual flight sim FM, and that this may not fully represent how aircraft behave IRL tedious

They aren’t hurt, they just don’t want to see the devs having their wheels spun by yet another silly flight model argument. Once again this type of thread is very common and tedious in these games. They almost always lack any real data and are just unsupported opinions.
If you have any real data to show ED that they haven’t seen in the 7+ years they’ve been working on this module then you can try providing it. Otherwise you’re just wasting everyone’s time. It’s amusing that you think you can just Google something the team hasn’t already seen.

As far as “realism” goes I hate to point out the truth, that the vast vast majority of players including yourself will never fly this plane IRL. So it really doesn’t matter. We actually just like the game to be believable. But it’s still just a game. You aren’t actually real life training to AAR a real life Hornet here in DCS* and don’t have some fully real professional cockpit simulator and controls that would require so why worry? 

* The DCS A-10C has actually been used for AAR training but I’m sure it’s just for the visuals in VR

Edited December 2, 2024 by SharpeXB

[Vakarian]

So, IRL Hornet pilots mention that the FM is good enough and you think it's not realistic. Well, no amount of arguing is going to change your point of view so this entire thread is kinda pointless IMO.

This is first and foremost a game. So if you think something is not "good enough", only way to even incite some action is by providing hard proof of what's wrong. So something tangible, like the numbers, charts and if you can use those to prove that things are off, there might be a chance that this gets investigated. Feelings don't mean much, especially if you don't have first hand experience with the said machine. I don't so I take what SMEs tell as granted due to being in no position to argument with them. If it's fine for them, it sure as hell is fine for me too.

Also, keep in mind two things. First is that you'll never get 1:1 representation due to the fact that some things have to be extrapolated or "guessed" in order not to fry your CPU whenever you fly and enable somewhat sensible performance. Second thing is, you'll never get 1:1 representation as certain militaries might not like everyone and their brothers having access to the perfect flight model of the aircraft in their inventory by some game for measly ~80 dollars (worst case scenario). Manage expectations...

[SharpeXB]

“The plane is unrealistic and too hard to fly and my evidence is from a YouTube video where it looks easier”

[HILOK]

i think we're talking about the last 10~15% to perfection here (if there is such thing in a sim), and i don't see any contradiction to SME's statements saying that the FM is "not perfect, but fine" and "good enough"...
this sim could really benefit from discussing such topics in a less emotional manner.

[Pilum]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

They aren’t hurt, they just don’t want to see the devs having their wheels spun by yet another silly flight model argument. Once again this type of thread is very common and tedious in these games. They almost always lack any real data and are just unsupported opinions.
If you have any real data to show ED that they haven’t seen in the 7+ years they’ve been working on this module then you can try providing it. Otherwise you’re just wasting everyone’s time. It’s amusing that you think you can just Google something the team hasn’t already seen.

As far as “realism” goes I hate to point out the truth, that the vast vast majority of players including yourself will never fly this plane IRL. So it really doesn’t matter. We actually just like the game to be believable. But it’s still just a game. You aren’t actually real life training to AAR a real life Hornet here in DCS* and don’t have some fully real professional cockpit simulator and controls that would require so why worry? 

* The DCS A-10C has actually been used for AAR training but I’m sure it’s just for the visuals in VR

 

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

“The plane is unrealistic and too hard to fly and my evidence is from a YouTube video where it looks easier”

See, this is what’s called building a strawman: You start an argument with a someone who has a Masters in aeronautical engineering specializing in aerodynamics, flight mechanics and structural engineering and who has worked on the JA 37 Viggen and JAS 39 systems at SAAB, and who had colleagues working on the FBW FCS systems and who at work saw his fair share of HUD videos without wobble in them. Seeing your situation is untenable, and that you are out of your depth, you now leave you Bailey and retreat to your Motte, claiming your opponent just googled everything.

BTW, I really enjoyed this video you have on YouTube: Looks like you get into some nasty PIO’s there and had to back out to come back in to catch the basked. Not always so easy to catch the basket in-game is it? Maybe it was a bit too wobbly for you?

 

 

Now again, compare that to the Growler AAR video I posted earlier:

 

Does the aircraft behavior in-game and in the Growler video above look even remotely similar?

No they don’t.

One last time: If you can’t interpret, or understand why I posted these videos, then there is no helping you. I didn’t post them to show that AAR IRL was easy. That’s not what I’m not saying at all. I posted them so people could see how the F-18 BEHAVES in-game and IRL, i.e. their flight mechanics. But if you really can’t see or understand the difference, then we are done.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Pilum

[Pilum]

46 minutes ago, HILOK said:

i think we're talking about the last 10~15% to perfection here (if there is such thing in a sim), and i don't see any contradiction to SME's statements saying that the FM is "not perfect, but fine" and "good enough"...
this sim could really benefit from discussing such topics in a less emotional manner.

Absolutely. I think the F-18 is a top notch module and thoroughly enjoy flying it. With that said, sometimes even the sun has its spots. 

[SharpeXB]

16 minutes ago, Pilum said:

You start an argument with a someone who has a Masters in aeronautical engineering specializing in aerodynamics, flight mechanics and structural engineering

Then with such a background you should understand how to provide the necessary data to support your theory. You haven’t provided anything so far. Some other sims would have locked or deleted your topic by now…

18 minutes ago, Pilum said:

Looks like you get into some nasty PIO’s there and had to back out to come back in to catch the basked. Not always so easy to catch the basket in-game is it? Maybe it was a bit too wobbly for you?

I think I mentioned there it was probably my 4th or 5th try. And, fun fact, I had about a six year gap between doing that with the A-10C and the Hornet. So it’s not as impossible as it might seem, if I can do this anyone can. Neither you or I can say if the level of “wobblyness” is accurate or not. The point of a tutorial isn’t to analyze the flight model, just learn to play the game as it is. Honestly I think tutorials are better when they’re not so perfect, making things look too easy can be deceptive. 

33 minutes ago, Pilum said:

Does the aircraft behavior in-game and in the Growler video above look even remotely similar?

I don’t see why watching the video has anything to do with it. I can watch someone walk a tightrope and make it look easy. That doesn’t mean it is. 

[Pilum]

Was not planning to post anything more here but I see now that the question in my OP was actually answered earlier in this thread and that I unfortunately missed that:

19 hours ago, Razor18 said:

Yeah, at some point in time, F-18 FM (maybe others too) got a bit more sensitive. But it only means more practice, or if you don't have the patience to adjust to the new flight model, I would recommend to put in a Curvature of 20 for both the pitch and the roll axis. This brings back just about the old sensitivity you got probably used to. Also, PIO usually comes from looking at the basket in close, and not looking on the big picture (including looking at the FPM to keep level flight) to keep you from chasing the basket vertically.

So it seems that this (the wobbliness) is tweakable in-game after all, and that someone in their wisdom decided that doing tanker hookups in DCS was too easy before, and decided to make it more difficult. Well, for the reasons I have outlined in a number of posts in this thread, IMHO I think this is a mistake. But for sure, this is of course just an opinion, one which the postings in this thread by some other simmers has made abundantly clear is not a sentiment shared by all.

Anyway, getting back to the subject of evidence: Unfortunately, opinions are all the evidence there is when it comes to this aspect of the sim. Because when it comes to flight characteristics, these are by nature subjective. You can’t like for other performance aspects like speed, turn rate or climb rate etc. provide a single value or chart to prove this either way. So asking me to provide evidence to “prove” that the current FM is wrong is just as futile as asking for the evidence why the developers made the tanker hookup more difficult in the patch Razor18 is referring to above.

And this is why we have the Cooper-Harper scale. The pilot flies the plane and rates certain flying characteristics a value from 1 to 10. Different pilots will have different opinions as to which value is correct. And my rating of the DCS F-18 when it comes to tanker hookup is a 7: The controllability of the aircraft as such is not in question, but it’s not controllable enough to hook up to a basket that is moving, even with maximum effort. My rating of the IRL aircraft as shown in the Growler video is a 3 or above, because even in the excessive turbulence the pilot is faced with, he still manages to hook up which was impressive. Rating it 3 is warranted I think because rating it 4 would indicate that there are deficiencies that warrant improvement, which seems unjustified given that the pilot was successful even under the extreme conditions he faced. In addition, the USN would hardly accept anything into service that was still a 4, i.e. as in having “Deficiencies that warrant improvement”. 

So a good move IMHO would be to eventually do a patch that will move the rating of the DCS F-18 from a 7 closer to a 3 on the Cooper-Harper scale. If not now, then this will anyway be sorely needed if tanker turbulence is ever added to the game, because all the DCS tanker instruction videos I’ve seen so far will be pretty much useless to catch a basket that is moving around like in the Growler video.

And before simmers jump in to point out the obvious:

 

But it's exactly this that is the beauty of the Cooper-Harper scale: It builds on opinions. And everyone is entitled to one. But it's still as scientific as it gets.

Edited December 3, 2024 by Pilum

[BIGNEWY]

please post a track replay example of the issue YOU are having. 

thank you 

[Dragon1-1]

17 minutes ago, Pilum said:

So a good move IMHO would be to eventually do a patch that will move the rating of the DCS F-18 from a 7 closer to a 3 on the Cooper-Harper scale. If not now, then this will anyway be sorely needed if tanker turbulence is ever added to the game, because all the DCS tanker instruction videos I’ve seen so far will be pretty much useless to catch a basket that is moving around like in the Growler video.

Get a better stick. I don't know what you're flying with, but it's probably not a 1:1 replica of the Hornet stick. I started out on CH Fighterstick before moving onto Winwing Orion 1, and the difference is enormous. That is what you're missing. The real pilot has a stick that acts completely different to anything you can mount on the desk. Don't have room for a floor-mounted gimbal with a long extension and uptuned springs, then try, at least, to get a high end side mounted HOTAS. This will suddenly make those precision adjustments possible.

You probably won't believe me that it's all due to your stick. I didn't think it'd make such a difference, either, but it does. Don't forget that the Cooper-Harper scale evaluates the aircraft as a whole, which includes the flight controls. If your flight controls suck, there's not much ED can do, though you do have options for adding some curves to your stick.

Oh, and don't discount practice. Real pilots don't get anywhere near the tanker until they've had a lot of formation training first. 

[Tenkom]

In a real F18 you have to pull HARD on the stick, around 40 lbs for full deflection according to some results I found on google. 

Your thrustmaster with an extension is nothing compared to that. Couple that with the complete lack of damping in the travel.

You can bascially whip that stick back and forth much easier and faster than what can easily be done in the real thing which is a recipe for PIOs. Get a force feedback stick which can simulate the higher forces and damping and you might get a different feel for things.

The below info is not verified but it sounds reasonable and I have heard real pilots mention that you do indeed have to pull quite hard on the stick.

 

[Pilum]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

please post a track replay example of the issue YOU are having. 

thank you 

So attached to this post is a track (Thrustmaster stick with short extension 25% curve) showing that even though I hardly move the stick at all, the aircraft starts oscillating around when I do the first attempt at hockup where I try to do minute corrections to try to fly straight into the basket.

This is unsuccessful so I back off, then come back in again in a path that I judge will hit the basket basically not touching the stick because I know that doing so will start the PIO’s.

So this shows exactly the same problem as out lined in the other videos I posted previously, but in addition to that showing that I need some more practice to master the in-game FM as well. 

But this is not the point: the point is that this in-game method bears no resemblance whatsoever to what is going on in the Growler video below where the pilot has crisp and responsive control with no tendencies to PIO at all during the whole sequence. He can (and does) chase and fly straight into the basket. No careful more or less straight approach from afar into the basket flying needed like in DCS.

 

Wobbly FM example 1.trk

Edited December 3, 2024 by Pilum

[Pilum]

53 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Get a better stick. I don't know what you're flying with, but it's probably not a 1:1 replica of the Hornet stick. I started out on CH Fighterstick before moving onto Winwing Orion 1, and the difference is enormous. That is what you're missing. The real pilot has a stick that acts completely different to anything you can mount on the desk. Don't have room for a floor-mounted gimbal with a long extension and uptuned springs, then try, at least, to get a high end side mounted HOTAS. This will suddenly make those precision adjustments possible.

You probably won't believe me that it's all due to your stick. I didn't think it'd make such a difference, either, but it does. Don't forget that the Cooper-Harper scale evaluates the aircraft as a whole, which includes the flight controls. If your flight controls suck, there's not much ED can do, though you do have options for adding some curves to your stick.

Oh, and don't discount practice. Real pilots don't get anywhere near the tanker until they've had a lot of formation training first. 

 

53 minutes ago, Tenkom said:

In a real F18 you have to pull HARD on the stick, around 40 lbs for full deflection according to some results I found on google. 

Your thrustmaster with an extension is nothing compared to that. Couple that with the complete lack of damping in the travel.

You can bascially whip that stick back and forth much easier and faster than what can easily be done in the real thing which is a recipe for PIOs. Get a force feedback stick which can simulate the higher forces and damping and you might get a different feel for things.

The below info is not verified but it sounds reasonable and I have heard real pilots mention that you do indeed have to pull quite hard on the stick.

 

Yes, I'm sure a longer extension and a stiffer spring will help to get better results out of the in-game FM, but I invite you to look at the Growler video I posted above. You can see that as soon as he moves the stick, the aircraft moves as well. However, and here is the important part: As soon as he returns the stick the movement stops immediately, and there is absolutely no tendency to PIO. So IRL, the "FM" looks more like an "on-rails" FM than a wobbly one. And this is the reason I asked the question I did in the OP.

PS: Just a minor correction when it comes to the Cooper-Harper scale: "It is important to note that a Handling Qualities Rating (HQR) can not be assigned to an aircraft, as in 'That aircraft is a HQR 5 aircraft.' Any HQR that is assigned requires a well defined, repeatable task, a well trained pilot that is actively engaged in accomplishing that task, and an aircraft."

Edited December 3, 2024 by Pilum

[Hiob]

13 hours ago, Pilum said:

Does the aircraft behavior in-game and in the Growler video above look even remotely similar?

.... maybe it's just me, but actually - they do look exactly the same to me. Except that the real pilot was eventually successful (this time) and the virtual wasn't.