Fog - No ability to set local fog, and height is based on sea level for manual, meaning having to drown out the entire map.

[Hawkeye_UK]

As per title, new fog for manual settings appear to be set from sea level, thus if an airfield is at 3500 feet above mean sea level, the setting would have to be above that in thickness in the mission editor.

Effectively this means that we will have to drown out large area's of the entire map, which is not only resource heavy, but unrealistic beyond words.

Not have chance yet to look at the auto and any adiabatic lapse rate, does the map simulate the temperature gradient as we increase and decrease with altitude in the new system?

 

Essentially for a new system, it's a big oversight that we cannot set fog to be linked to an airfield, and say have a zone around that system , with say different conditions at airfield A, compared to airfield B, which may be 400 miles away!!

 

What is the plan for this, as at present it is extreamely limited, and personally i think this really should have been a day one release requirement, given its a new system and you can take as much time to release etc.

[gorzasty]

Yes, for me it looks unrealistic too. Fog should be set to hight above the ground, and not end suddenly when range set in the editor is over. It looks bad now :(

Wysłane z mojego VOG-L29 przy użyciu Tapatalka

[MortalMando]

Did you guys check dust as well? It seems the same or similar issue. Once you set the dust to visibility to 300m while at Damascus (approx. 1000m MSL) it looks like this: 

Edited December 6, 2024 by MortalMando
Fog vs. dust

[draconus]

You can set it so that the fog changes in time, like here:

 

[cfrag]

On 12/4/2024 at 8:13 PM, Hawkeye_UK said:

As per title, new fog for manual settings appear to be set from sea level, thus if an airfield is at 3500 feet above mean sea level, the setting would have to be above that in thickness in the mission editor.

Indeed. It appears fog is a global setting, for the entire map, and you will have to adjust thickness for your local requirements at your local airfield, which is rather unfortunate and makes it ill suitable for multiplayer missions that have different, far apart areas of operation. So, if you want some 100m fog at Amman, you'd set thickness to 400. This will make the fog 100m thick at Amman (which is at 300 meters MSL) - and that unfortunately also creates fog 400m thick at Incirlik (MSL 0), some 560nm (1000km) away.

Real life fog doesn't work that way at all, since it's a local weather phenomenon. But at least we can have a fog visual effect.

Edited December 19, 2024 by cfrag

[Hawkeye_UK]

7 hours ago, cfrag said:

Indeed. It appears fog is a global setting, for the entire map, and you will have to adjust thickness for your local requirements at your local airfield, which is rather unfortunate and makes it ill suitable for multiplayer missions that have different, far apart areas of operation. So, if you want some 100m fog at Amman, you'd set thickness to 400. This will make the fog 100m thick at Amman (which is at 300 meters MSL) - and that unfortunately also creates fog 400m thick at Incirlik (MSL 0), some 560nm (1000km) away.

Real life fog doesn't work that way at all, since it's a local weather phenomenon. But at least we can have a fog visual effect.

Looks good for content creators and you tube shots though doesnt it.  Also nice for single ILS approaches from airborne start into one airfield.  Totally useless for actual gameplay and setting up weather for campaign making or MP.

 

Does smack of once again let's make something look pretty without actually speaking to people that make flyable mission content for the product.

Edited December 19, 2024 by Hawkeye_UK

[Hawkeye_UK]

On 12/18/2024 at 9:34 AM, draconus said:

You can set it so that the fog changes in time, like here:

 

Aware but limited use and this should be for an exceptional circumstance.  Heaven forbid we use a wet variable and adiabatic lapse rate and weather engine.  It would have been better if they were going to be so limited in it's application to at least have it changeable for each airfield zone.  It's pretty useless in it's current format given we are talking about drowning out an entire map.  It's a nice visual, really nice, not performance killing unlike rain (STILL) for some reason, but it's been poorly designed in it's ability to be implemented. 

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

Totally useless for actual gameplay and setting up weather for campaign making or MP.

maybe useless for MP .. fortunately it is pretty useful on Single player, so I’m glad to have it.

[buur]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Hawkeye_UK:

 Totally useless for actual gameplay and setting up weather for campaign making or MP.

 

maybe useless for only a small portions of multiplayer pilots. If you fly together than you can use it.

[Vee.A]

10 hours ago, cfrag said:

Indeed. It appears fog is a global setting, for the entire map, and you will have to adjust thickness for your local requirements at your local airfield, which is rather unfortunate and makes it ill suitable for multiplayer missions that have different, far apart areas of operation. So, if you want some 100m fog at Amman, you'd set thickness to 400. This will make the fog 100m thick at Amman (which is at 300 meters MSL) - and that unfortunately also creates fog 400m thick at Incirlik (MSL 0), some 560nm (1000km) away.

Real life fog doesn't work that way at all, since it's a local weather phenomenon. But at least we can have a fog visual effect.

This is an issue with the entire weather system. It's just more annoying with fog in particular. There's a lot that's needed for more realistic weather (which is planned), but the most basic thing we need first is localized settings for clouds, wind, and fog.

On 12/4/2024 at 2:13 PM, Hawkeye_UK said:

As per title, new fog for manual settings appear to be set from sea level, thus if an airfield is at 3500 feet above mean sea level, the setting would have to be above that in thickness in the mission editor.

Effectively this means that we will have to drown out large area's of the entire map, which is not only resource heavy, but unrealistic beyond words.

Not have chance yet to look at the auto and any adiabatic lapse rate, does the map simulate the temperature gradient as we increase and decrease with altitude in the new system?

 

Essentially for a new system, it's a big oversight that we cannot set fog to be linked to an airfield, and say have a zone around that system , with say different conditions at airfield A, compared to airfield B, which may be 400 miles away!!

 

What is the plan for this, as at present it is extreamely limited, and personally i think this really should have been a day one release requirement, given its a new system and you can take as much time to release etc.

As per the whitepaper, currently auto is just tied to the time of day, but will include a lot of other factors later

[Mav87th]

You can use local zones to change fog settings during the mission. Aka. player approaching a particular airfield triggers thick fog or when over target area the fog lifts etc. 

[Hawkeye_UK]

On 2/6/2025 at 7:36 AM, Mav87th said:

You can use local zones to change fog settings during the mission. Aka. player approaching a particular airfield triggers thick fog or when over target area the fog lifts etc. 

Yep but the point is why bring in a new weather setting without the basic grasp of adiabatic lapse rate, or at least have a cheat mode to be able to set it around an airfield without using triggers.

The ability to not be able to set local variations in fog at different parts of the map at the same time, is poor and "half a job"

[AKULA_OPTIMUS]

Weather right now in DCS is just cosmetics.

[draconus]

13 minutes ago, AKULA_OPTIMUS said:

Weather right now in DCS is just cosmetics.

Not for player and not for AI since 2.9.10:

Quote

Currently fog affects AI ground vehicles and AI aircraft detection logic - they won't detect targets if fog thickness doesn't allow that. Weapon seekers, sensors and helicopters George AI and Petrovich AI detection fog support are in progress and will come in next updates.  

[AKULA_OPTIMUS]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

Not for player and not for AI since 2.9.10:

Thats more about unit systems than weather functionality

[draconus]

46 minutes ago, AKULA_OPTIMUS said:

Thats more about unit systems than weather functionality

So what's your point? Rain, fog/dust and clouds will seriously affect your vision out of the cockpit, winds and turbulence directly affect your flying, sun can affect readability of your HUD or other instruments - just cosmetics?

Edited February 20 by draconus

[=475FG= Dawger]

In my rather extensive experience with fog and weather in general, there is no such thing as ‘local’ fog. Sure, maybe some patchy fog in low basins or trapped in a valley but fog of the sort that concerns aviation tends to be widespread. 

Fog is just cloud that touches the ground and are subject to the same processes. 

You don’t really get local cloud patterns unless you are over the ocean, where you see clouds over islands during clear skies elsewhere. 
 

The current weather system in DCS is actually pretty realistic and requires a mission designer to understand how weather actually works and how to incorporate it. 

[Hawkeye_UK]

8 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

In my rather extensive experience with fog and weather in general, there is no such thing as ‘local’ fog. Sure, maybe some patchy fog in low basins or trapped in a valley but fog of the sort that concerns aviation tends to be widespread. 

Fog is just cloud that touches the ground and are subject to the same processes. 

You don’t really get local cloud patterns unless you are over the ocean, where you see clouds over islands during clear skies elsewhere. 
 

The current weather system in DCS is actually pretty realistic and requires a mission designer to understand how weather actually works and how to incorporate it. 

Yea i'l just put this bluntly, that's absolute nonsense depending where in the world your operating.  I'm guessing your rather extensive experience does not include the UK or Europe.....It can be very localised and a reason why our main airbases often have a satelite divert, some can be literally 15 miles away and clear from back in the day when there was no tacan approach/ILS.

We have alot of river systems and relief variation, and as you will be aware these are primary factors.

 

[=475FG= Dawger]

11 hours ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

Yea i'l just put this bluntly, that's absolute nonsense depending where in the world your operating.  I'm guessing your rather extensive experience does not include the UK or Europe.....It can be very localised and a reason why our main airbases often have a satelite divert, some can be literally 15 miles away and clear from back in the day when there was no tacan approach/ILS.

We have alot of river systems and relief variation, and as you will be aware these are primary factors.

 

My experience includes extensive UK and European operations. Its funny that you mention it specifically, as the UK and Europe are famous in transatlantic crossing circles for the entire continent going below minimums simultaneously, making alternate planning very difficult at times.

I think if you carefully review your own post, you will find that we are actually in agreement.

Rivers and relief variation.

The original premise of this thread is that we should have the ability to set fog on a 'local' basis. I take that to mean at specific airfields and maybe a ten mile radius.

Your post appears to initially agree with that premise until you mention 'Rivers and relief'

As an easy to understand illustration, let's say we are standing on Shakespeare cliff at Dover. From our vantage point, the weather is clear and sunny but as we gaze below we see the top of a fog layer over the Channel. Mere feet away, the weather is very different because of the variation in relief. Is this same situation achievable in DCS? yes.

Is the reverse? Can there be 'fog' at the top of the cliff with none down at the beach? Maybe, except if there is no fog on the beach and you look up at the cliff and it is shrouded in 'fog' we would call it 'clouds' although up on the cliff it sure looks like fog. Is this something achievable in DCS? Mostly. The cloud base adjustment is pretty limited.

If we go inland and pick two points. RAF Coningsby can be socked in with fog at its elevation of 24 ft MSL while RAF Anwick, a few miles away, could be sitting in the clear at 200 ft MSL because air is a fluid and cold air sinks. Is it likely Anwick would be socked in and Coningsby not be foggy? Unlikely. 

When you fly over fog banks, one of their distinctive features is the sharp dividing line created by terrain elevation. The fog ends at a precise elevation over extensive areas and as the air warms, that elevation gets lower until the fog is gone.

We do not have the physical processes that actually produce and dissipate fog at our command in DCS. We cannot set air temperatures, rates of change, moisture content and its rate of change. We do not have simulation of ground based moisture sources such as residual precipitation or bodies of water. 

What we do have is a method to set the top level of a fog layer and its density and alter those two variables over time and this mimics real world fog behavior pretty well. Is it an accurate weather simulation in every detail? Of course not. Such a thing is not possible.

[AKULA_OPTIMUS]

21 hours ago, draconus said:

So what's your point? Rain, fog/dust and clouds will seriously affect your vision out of the cockpit, winds and turbulence directly affect your flying, sun can affect readability of your HUD or other instruments - just cosmetics?

Yes, most of that is cosmetics, all those things you said (like not be able to see through clouds and fog)are present in almost  every game ever that have those thigns in them. 

Clouds do nothing, fog does nothing, rain and snow do nothing, temperatures do nothing. Only affects some system capacities, and thats it. It doesnt even change through time, which is one of the most basic things wheather does. Even some racing games have more features related to weather conditions.

Edited February 21 by AKULA_OPTIMUS

[draconus]

1 minute ago, AKULA_OPTIMUS said:

Yes, most of that is cosmetics. Clouds do nothing, fog does nothing, rain and snow do nothing, temperatures do nothing. Only affects some system capacities, and thats it. It doesnt even change through time, which is on of the most basic things wheather does.

I already said what affects what and you called it cosmetics or nothing - that's your choice of definition (or ignorance).

Let's add more "nothings": temperature does affect engine operation, it affects lift, fuel flow rate, some modules have ice/fog on windshield simulated, some have pitot icing simulated, it also affects the creation of contrails of jets and missiles. The clouds move with the wind so the "weather set" stays the same in the air but it changes through time for any given place and fog/dust storm does change with time for the whole map.

[cfrag]

12 hours ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

21 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

In my rather extensive experience with fog and weather in general, there is no such thing as ‘local’ fog. Sure, maybe some patchy fog in low basins or trapped in a valley but fog of the sort that concerns aviation tends to be widespread. 

Fog is just cloud that touches the ground and are subject to the same processes. 

Yea i'l just put this bluntly, that's absolute nonsense

Agreed. Perhaps OP used 'local fog' loosely, and was trying to make the point that fog is really nothing more than a (local) cloud close to, or touching the ground. 

Still, people who are aghast that a mission's fog setting in Tel Aviv results in the same fog setting in Adana, more than 1000km away and therefore would prefer local(ized) fog settings (as opposed to "map global") are correct; the way that fog works in DCS is silly and not at all realistic. The (presumed) comment that there is no such thing as fog, as fog is really just a low cloud is technically correct, but misses the point.

If I create a mission for multiple players in multiple regions (e.g. the "Angels" mission in Syria with centers of operation in Adana, Haifa, Tel Aviv and Nicosia), I'd like to have some fog in Nicosia, heavy fog in Haifa, but no fog in Adana. That's physically something very likely to happen in real life, even if fog really is just clouds/condensation near the ground (A common definition of fog is: "Fog is a visible aerosol consisting of tiny water droplets or ice crystals suspended in the air at or near the Earth's surface"). It's currently impossible in DCS to set up local fog conditions for a specific area, and that - I believe - is the point of contention.

 

[Hawkeye_UK]

On 2/21/2025 at 11:50 AM, =475FG= Dawger said:

My experience includes extensive UK and European operations. Its funny that you mention it specifically, as the UK and Europe are famous in transatlantic crossing circles for the entire continent going below minimums simultaneously, making alternate planning very difficult at times.

I think if you carefully review your own post, you will find that we are actually in agreement.

Rivers and relief variation.

The original premise of this thread is that we should have the ability to set fog on a 'local' basis. I take that to mean at specific airfields and maybe a ten mile radius.

Your post appears to initially agree with that premise until you mention 'Rivers and relief'

As an easy to understand illustration, let's say we are standing on Shakespeare cliff at Dover. From our vantage point, the weather is clear and sunny but as we gaze below we see the top of a fog layer over the Channel. Mere feet away, the weather is very different because of the variation in relief. Is this same situation achievable in DCS? yes.

Is the reverse? Can there be 'fog' at the top of the cliff with none down at the beach? Maybe, except if there is no fog on the beach and you look up at the cliff and it is shrouded in 'fog' we would call it 'clouds' although up on the cliff it sure looks like fog. Is this something achievable in DCS? Mostly. The cloud base adjustment is pretty limited.

If we go inland and pick two points. RAF Coningsby can be socked in with fog at its elevation of 24 ft MSL while RAF Anwick, a few miles away, could be sitting in the clear at 200 ft MSL because air is a fluid and cold air sinks. Is it likely Anwick would be socked in and Coningsby not be foggy? Unlikely. 

When you fly over fog banks, one of their distinctive features is the sharp dividing line created by terrain elevation. The fog ends at a precise elevation over extensive areas and as the air warms, that elevation gets lower until the fog is gone.

We do not have the physical processes that actually produce and dissipate fog at our command in DCS. We cannot set air temperatures, rates of change, moisture content and its rate of change. We do not have simulation of ground based moisture sources such as residual precipitation or bodies of water. 

What we do have is a method to set the top level of a fog layer and its density and alter those two variables over time and this mimics real world fog behavior pretty well. Is it an accurate weather simulation in every detail? Of course not. Such a thing is not possible.

Dawger as per my earlier post in this thread, about 4 above my reply to you, was until they sort out having an adiabatic lapse rate modelled its not really going to work.  I think we both understand the met.

As an interim, the ability to set "local" fog within various regions of the map would at least be something.  My point being the implementation of weather in DCS is poor at present.

[=475FG= Dawger]

17 minutes ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

Dawger as per my earlier post in this thread, about 4 above my reply to you, was until they sort out having an adiabatic lapse rate modelled its not really going to work.  I think we both understand the met.

As an interim, the ability to set "local" fog within various regions of the map would at least be something.  My point being the implementation of weather in DCS is poor at present.

For the mp persistent mission server I manage, the present weather implementation works pretty well. I can quickly produce sets of different conditions tailored to the battle area. 
 

Since we aren’t trying to create conditions unsuitable for combat, I never use visibility lower than a couple kilometers and its really simple to create weather conditions of great variety that are constantly changing. 
 

We aren’t using entire maps so I have no problem if fog at X also causes fog at 1000 km distant Y.

I understand Cfrags difficulties in trying to make a single mission do many different things. 
 

However, for me, this is the best DCS weather has ever been. Admittedly my perspective is solely MP. 

[Nealius]

If the player or group of clients is not going to be in 3 or 4 different places at once, or at least not with such a degree of separation to need wide variations in weather, then why do we need local fog instead of using the timed triggers or zone triggers as mentioned above? At a certain point we're increasing developer workload to chase perfectionism over pragmatics. 

Edited February 26 by Nealius