correct as is TDOA doesn’t update threat ring for flightlead

[VarZat]

When using TDOA and finding a SAM, all other flight members get a threat ring on HSD but it does not happen for #1. I hope this is not intended, does not make any sense

[Red Dog]

I'd say it doesn't happen for TDOA Master. Not specifically flight lead but rather the guy initiating TDOA

[Lord Vader]

Hey @VarZat

If you are talking about broadcasting a SEAD target via datalink, by designating in the HTS page and then broadcasting via transmit switch, then, yes, it is correct that only the receiving aircraft get the data (target position slashed with threat ring on HSD). The logic is that the emitter doesn't transmit data to itself. 

However, you mentioned "TDOA" and that's a different thing. When you initiate a TDOA, you're not transmitting target positions to anyone, so no targets or threat rings are displayed on other aircraft.

Regarding how SEAD targets broadcast over datalink and TDOA logics, we've reviewed the procedures internally and found them working as intended.

[Red Dog]

@Lord Vader
I understand what you're saying which is indeed logic.

But I'd like to know from an operational point of view how the mechanisation of what you explain is efficient from a SEAD pilot perspective.... in DCS

Starting a SEAD mission, we don't know where the mobile or hidden SAMs are. And that's expected. We love that
So I understand that the SAM rings are not accurately placed. Matter of fact they are not placed at all since we do not have DTC allowing us to place PPT, Lines and SAM rings on the HSD

But 

When a guy locates an emitter with the HTS pod He doesn't get the SAM threat rings. 
But if he sends that emitter through the network to his wingmen, then these guys have the SAM threat rings
For the guy having sent the position of the emitter to have the SAM threat ring, a wingman who has received the data through the network has to send it again to the original guy.
Then the original guy gets the SAM rings in his aircraft.
Or is there something I didn't get? 

Realistically thinking, and with the danger of SEAD business, Do you guys really think it's been planned like that in the real F-16? 
It seems very dangerous, quite unefficient and way too long to avoid being shot down. 

Food for thoughts
 

.

 

[Voy]

What doesn't make sense to me is that if you send a SEAD target over datalink, there obviously must be some kind of internal database that determines the size of the threat ring for that given emitter type, or else how would it know how large to make the ring.

So if there is an internal database of emitter type to threat ring size, it means it was a conscious decision to not show threat rings around emitters on the HAD. Assuming ED's model is correct, it does seem rather weird.

[Lord Vader]

Currently, ground threats are displayed (or not) based on a Mission Editor setting. So if the mission creator determines the SAM is observed in the MFD, it will be displayed with the station ID and threat ring or it will be entirely omitted. This kind of information on the MFD is a collection of intel, it doesn't "detect" or "guess" positions. If I receive this intel on mission start (via ME and in the future with DTC), but the station is mobile, for example, it can be erroneous and only be updated by datalink share.

I think you are relying too much on the HSD page for a SEAD mission, possible due to the perceived safety it can theoretically provide with the mentioned threat rings. Again, this can be a bit deceiving if the station is not exactly where it should be. 

In a SEAD mission, not only the gathered intel is necessary, the HTP is your best tool. In such an environment, you need to consider the HTS system as your main source and the HSD as sort of a guideline if the data is available. TDOA makes it accurate to pinpoint locations and if you really want everyone to have the exact locations and rings, then you need to work as a team. 

[Moonshine]

While correct, still does not explain why - after going through the process and finding a sam with TDOA (teamwork with my flight members) and then me sending it via link (stp 107 and onwards or whatever) - I as the one sending it via link do not also get the information i am sending displayed on the HSD, meanwhile all my flight members get a new „ring“. That is the subject in question.
Not how rings are tied to units in the ME currently and therefore at the mercy of the mission designer. 

[Lord Vader]

Again, it's working as intended from our sources (including SME's) and according to internal tests. 

Thanks.

[Moonshine]

You did not understand my question, we are talking past one another

[dutchili]

Like the topic starter said: it is so strange that the pilot initiating the search is not getting the result. Please consult a subject matter expert.

Edited December 16, 2024 by dutchili

[BIGNEWY]

As mentioned already it is working as we intend it to. If you have Public unclassified evidence please DM me. 

thank you 

[Red Dog]

it has nothing to do with public unclassified evidence

It has to do with pure logic and common sense.

[dutchili]

On 12/16/2024 at 12:40 PM, BIGNEWY said:

As mentioned already it is working as we intend it to. If you have Public unclassified evidence please DM me. 

thank you 

@BIGNEWYCan you link the public unclassified evidence for the current implementation?

[BIGNEWY]

2 hours ago, dutchili said:

@BIGNEWYCan you link the public unclassified evidence for the current implementation?

The implementation we have in DCS is correct based on the information we have, if you have public information that contradicts that please PM me. 

thank you 

[Hobel]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb dutchili:

@BIGNEWYCan you link the public unclassified evidence for the current implementation?

 

vor 5 Stunden schrieb Red Dog:

it has nothing to do with public unclassified evidence

It has to do with pure logic and common sense.

I haven't read up in that much detail yet, but threat rings are more a matter of DTC being loaded into the aircraft.

Therefore, on the one hand, it is correct that it is not displayed in its own aircraft. At most there could be another symbolism that stands for "ground units", something similar to the X for example, which the transmitter does not see either, there is more in this direction. And I think as the module progresses we will see more in this direction in the future.

It is rather questionable (but I am not sure) that the receiver will get rings, as I said it is basically a DTC thing and it would be best to wait for the DTC first.

[VarZat]

46 minutes ago, Hobel said:

 

I haven't read up in that much detail yet, but threat rings are more a matter of DTC being loaded into the aircraft.

Therefore, on the one hand, it is correct that it is not displayed in its own aircraft. At most there could be another symbolism that stands for "ground units", something similar to the X for example, which the transmitter does not see either, there is more in this direction. And I think as the module progresses we will see more in this direction in the future.

It is rather questionable (but I am not sure) that the receiver will get rings, as I said it is basically a DTC thing and it would be best to wait for the DTC first.

I dont think finding a new emitter without any prior intelligence on the go with TDOA should have anything to do with DTC, which my understanding is used in startup for pre planned threats only.

1. You and your flight is out on a mission and you spot an emitter with your HTS pod
2. As master in the flight you engage TDOA and signal your flight to start triangulating the emitter
3. Once you reach PGM1 you send the data to your flight with IFF IN long press
4. Now your flight members all have a steerpoint set exactly on the emitter aswell as getting a threat ring on their HSD giving them good SA on where the threat is

5. You as FL and master now have no steerpoint for the threat you have just triangulated, and you dont get any of that great SA on the threat position on the HSD that your wingmen enjoys. 
Is this truly the way it should be? Now i would rather that none of the flight members get the threat info then everyone but one...

[dutchili]

DM sent

[Raptor9]

There are some conflicting details in this thread so I'll attempt to clarify to sort out any confusion

1. When TDOA is performed with several flight members, the HTS pods work cooperatively with one master pulling in sensor data from the remaining HTS pods in the flight to precisely locate a radar. Regardless of whether TDOA achieves PGM1 or not, when TDOA ends no SEAD target points (symbol with a slash) are transmitted across the datalink.
2. If any flight member designates a radar symbol on the HARM Attack Display (HAD) MFD format and applies a long press of the VHF-UHF Comm switch to the inboard position, a SEAD target point (symbol with a slash) is transmitted to other flight members, which appears on their HSD and is stored within the steerpoint range of 107-127.

The claim by the original poster that TDOA should generate a threat ring is not supported by documentation for the version of F-16 simulated by DCS F-16C. Further, after careful review of available documentation, we have determined that the fact a threat ring is being displayed on the HSD after receiving a SEAD target via a datalink is actually an error. The only symbols on the HSD that should have threat rings drawn around them are pre-planned threat locations, which are uploaded automatically to the HSD at mission start. The HSD should not display threat rings around SEAD targets received via datalink (which will need to be corrected), and the HAD should not display threat rings at all.

We appreciate bringing this error to our attention.

[Hobel]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb VarZat:

I dont think finding a new emitter without any prior intelligence on the go with TDOA should have anything to do with DTC, which my understanding is used in startup for pre planned threats only.

1. You and your flight is out on a mission and you spot an emitter with your HTS pod
2. As master in the flight you engage TDOA and signal your flight to start triangulating the emitter
3. Once you reach PGM1 you send the data to your flight with IFF IN long press
4. Now your flight members all have a steerpoint set exactly on the emitter aswell as getting a threat ring on their HSD giving them good SA on where the threat is

5. You as FL and master now have no steerpoint for the threat you have just triangulated, and you dont get any of that great SA on the threat position on the HSD that your wingmen enjoys. 
Is this truly the way it should be? Now i would rather that none of the flight members get the threat info then everyone but one...

You misunderstood me, I meant that it is a pure DTC and therefore Pre Planed thing, it is mentioned in several documents that the threat ring is a PP thing and also no threat ring is Created or sent , Raptor has summarized and explained it  perfectly.

Edited December 18, 2024 by Hobel

[dutchili]

Indeed. There was a good exchange of public documents behind the scenes on this topic.
Yet I agree with the original poster that it ...well...sucks. But DCS is a simulation, not a game, so we have to live with what we know about the real world and hope that the real pilots received more useful software in later blocks/MLUs.

[Hobel]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb dutchili:

Indeed. There was a good exchange of public documents behind the scenes on this topic.
Yet I agree with the original poster that it ...well...sucks. But DCS is a simulation, not a game, so we have to live with what we know about the real world and hope that the real pilots received more useful software in later blocks/MLUs.

Now with the symbolism that Raptor mentioned you can directly distinguish between PP and SEAD-Link16 symbols for my taste Also not bad and can also be good for the SA. 

[Moonshine]

6 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

There are some conflicting details in this thread so I'll attempt to clarify to sort out any confusion

1. When TDOA is performed with several flight members, the HTS pods work cooperatively with one master pulling in sensor data from the remaining HTS pods in the flight to precisely locate a radar. Regardless of whether TDOA achieves PGM1 or not, when TDOA ends no SEAD target points (symbol with a slash) are transmitted across the datalink.
2. If any flight member designates a radar symbol on the HARM Attack Display (HAD) MFD format and applies a long press of the VHF-UHF Comm switch to the inboard position, a SEAD target point (symbol with a slash) is transmitted to other flight members, which appears on their HSD and is stored within the steerpoint range of 107-127.

The claim by the original poster that TDOA should generate a threat ring is not supported by documentation for the version of F-16 simulated by DCS F-16C. Further, after careful review of available documentation, we have determined that the fact a threat ring is being displayed on the HSD after receiving a SEAD target via a datalink is actually an error. The only symbols on the HSD that should have threat rings drawn around them are pre-planned threat locations, which are uploaded automatically to the HSD at mission start. The HSD should not display threat rings around SEAD targets received via datalink (which will need to be corrected), and the HAD should not display threat rings at all.

We appreciate bringing this error to our attention.

good to hear.
will that "Sead target" also be stored for the aircraft sending it? kinda pointless if everyone gets a steerpoint but me who actually has all the data and sends the information to the other members? i think thats the bigger issue than having or not having threat rings. the thing in question was the fact that the one sending such a point does not get any way to store it for himself.

Edited December 18, 2024 by Moonshine

[Raptor9]

1 hour ago, Moonshine said:

 the thing in question was the fact that the one sending such a point does not get any way to store it for himself.

It is no different than sending a markpoint from one's own SPI. Transmitting this does not simultaneously generate a markpoint in the ownship. But this does not prevent storing an ownship markpoint separately for later use if that is what you intend to do.

The idea is that the transmitting aircraft is letting others know what he is doing or what/where his sensors, weapons, or attention is focused for coordination amongst the flight.

Would it be nice if the HSD dynamcally updated threat locations and plotted corresponding threat rings as air defense locations are discovered like a dedicated ELINT-recon aircraft? Sure. But there is no such capability described in public documents.

[Moonshine]

thats fine if only we could actually store the info on the SEAD DED page as a markpoint. but we cant. 

[SpecterDC13]

22 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

thats fine if only we could actually store the info on the SEAD DED page as a markpoint. but we cant. 

That is why you should have a TGP with you. When you lock a target on the HAD the TGP will be in the general area of the SAM. The higher the PGM the closer the TGP will be which will allow you to create a markpoint. Sounds like a lot of work but that is where being proficient with the aircraft comes into play and lots of practice.