Afghanistan vs. Iraq - why is there such a difference in visual quality in their initial releases?

[saltyleon]

Hello,

I purchased the Afghanistan map directly on release and as many others, I immediately noticed the "patchwork" character of the map. Large areas with very low detail and smaller "patches" with very high detailed textures are located directly next to each other without transition. These patchwork patterns can be found all over the place. Also there were/are lots of LOD issues where the terrain literally "moves" up and down when you come closer to an area, which feels strange, of course. 

Yesterday I saw first content from the new Iraq map and I was wondering that - besides that there are areas on the map, that lack content (buildings/vegetation) - I didn't notice any of the issues from Afghanistan (or far less). All parts of the map that I saw (finished or unfinished) share much more equal texture quality of ground textures with additional layers for terrain details and vegetation. The overall quality seems a lot better and - way more consistent across the map.

This causes some questions: Why is the quality of the initial releases of these two maps (both developed by ED) so different? ED told us, that both maps are developed in parallel by two separate teams. Both maps are nearly of the same size. Both maps are located in the same region of the globe with similar terrain and they probably sharing a lot of assets. Why still can't ED tell their customers, 6 months after release, about WHEN Afghanistan will get its first update and WHAT we can expect in terms of improved quality for the southwest regionand what is EDs visual goal in terms of detail and quality for these new maps?

I think we can expect that both teams have access to the same tools and techniques for map creation, right? Why did Afghanistan even get released in its state while these issues were clearly visible, not only compared to Iraq but also compared to maps from third-party developers, e.g. the Sinai map?

As a purchaser of the Afghanistan map the lack of information from ED, the fact that maps like Kola already received several updates across the year and finally Iraq map beeing released and in a better state even before Afghanistan gets any fixes/updates (and most likely not before February 2025) doesn't feel good. 

Thanks for listening.

Edited December 12, 2024 by saltyleon

[BIGNEWY]

Hi saltyleon, 

as mentioned there are two different teams for Afghanistan and Iraq, there will be artistic differences in the way the terrain is developed. We are very close to giving you all an update on Afghanistan. 

As early access progresses for both we will continue to see improvements and additions to each terrain, that will take some time and Afghanistan has taken longer than expected for the first major update so apologies for that. I hope you will think the update is worth it when it arrives. 

thank you 

[Guille H. Mono]

So, the people who bought Afghanistan Map just dind't get lucky with the team assigned to the project?

 

I hope the update comes soon.

 

[BIGNEWY]

3 minutes ago, Guille H. Mono said:

So, the people who bought Afghanistan Map just dind't get lucky with the team assigned to the project?

 

I hope the update comes soon.

 

Everyone has an opinion and that is fine, what you like might not be ok for others. 

As mentioned the team will be sharing news soon and we are close to another update. 

thank you 

[Punkmonkey22]

8 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Everyone has an opinion and that is fine, what you like might not be ok for others. 

As mentioned the team will be sharing news soon and we are close to another update. 

thank you 

Is there any chance of a refund to "return" the Afghan map if we don't like this style? It looks awful and I deeply regret wasting my money on a map I have barely used due to the terrible visuals.

[Weta43]

You mean like how you might buy a coat from a shop then take it back & say to the shop owner : "I've worn it to parties twice & no one paid me a compliment, so I'd like to return it for a refund"?  

Edited December 12, 2024 by Weta43

[JohnMclane]

While I'm not as down as some on Afghanistan, I'd be lying if I told you I didn't tell myself "Damn... got the wrong one" when I got a glimpse of what Iraq looked like.

 

That being said, I wasn't dissatisfied with Afghan before that release so it's more a case of a team doing an amazing job than it is about another team doing a bad one.

 

Only thing frustrating for me about Afghan is the lack of meaningful communication. Feels like "We will tell you soon" doesn't accomplish anything useful.

Edited December 12, 2024 by JohnMclane

[norman99]

4 hours ago, JohnMclane said:

Only thing frustrating for me about Afghan is the lack of meaningful communication. Feels like "We will tell you soon" doesn't accomplish anything useful.

This response is becoming increasingly prevalent throughout EDs comms. It’s a cop-out specifically designed to avoid being held accountable for failing to meet timelines or feature promises. Basically, as long as ED don’t say anything, they don’t have to deliver anything…

(P.S. before the mods jump in, this post, and many others like it, are born out of continuing frustration with the ongoing poor comms and project management. It’s not intended as an attack on any ED individual, or the hard work they do.)

[wilbur81]

4 hours ago, JohnMclane said:

 I'd be lying if I told you I didn't tell myself "Damn... got the wrong one" when I got a glimpse of what Iraq looked like.

 

Agreed. 

[Cab]

1 hour ago, norman99 said:

This response is becoming increasingly prevalent throughout EDs comms. It’s a cop-out specifically designed to avoid being held accountable for failing to meet timelines or feature promises. Basically, as long as ED don’t say anything, they don’t have to deliver anything…

What would you want them to say?

[Beirut]

Hope the Afghan map team get a visit and some pointers from the Iraq map team.

[Punkmonkey22]

13 hours ago, Weta43 said:

You mean like how you might buy a coat from a shop then take it back & say to the shop owner : "I've worn it to parties twice & no one paid me a compliment, so I'd like to return it for a refund"?  

Well yes, people do actually do that as stores offer refunds for being unhappy with a product.. Stung again by digital purchases......

[saltyleon]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Cab:

What would you want them to say?

• At initial early access release: The following areas/features are "finished"/"work in progress"/"coming later". From finished areas you can get an idea how the final product will look like.
• This is our roadmap for the product (map) from early access to the final product (and quality) [roadmap - months/planned releases/whatever]
• This is our goal for the quality of the final product (map) [image/video +optional article]
• Something went wrong/didn't meet our/your expectations on the product. We assessed the situation and are planning going forward this way. If you want to know more, ... [article]
• Our product needs more time to meet our/your expectations. If you want to know more, this is what we're intend to to do solve the issue ... [article]

That's what I wanna hear from every developer that uses the early access model to get early funding for product development. Because I need to trust the developer, that my investment in this unfinished product is worth the waiting time and the initial quality/state of the product can asure that the goals, the developer outlines, can be met. 

Edited December 13, 2024 by saltyleon

[BIGNEWY]

27 minutes ago, saltyleon said:

• At initial early access release: The following areas/features are "finished"/"work in progress"/"coming later". From finished areas you can get an idea how the final product will look like.
• This is our roadmap for the product (map) from early access to the final product (and quality) [roadmap - months/planned releases/whatever]
• This is our goal for the quality of the final product (map) [image/video +optional article]
• Something went wrong/didn't meet our/your expectations on the product. We assessed the situation and are planning going forward this way. If you want to know more, ... [article]
• Our product needs more time to meet our/your expectations. If you want to know more, this is what we're intend to to do solve the issue ... [article]

That's what I wanna hear from every developer that uses the early access model to get early funding for product development. Because I need to trust the developer, that my investment in this unfinished product is worth the waiting time and the initial quality/state of the product can asure that the goals, the developer outlines, can be met. 

We have had newsletters to keep you all informed, and we are active here on the forum to answer questions which we have. We also have another newsletter today with development progress, and we will be having a patch soon hopefully. 

Again I can assure you work is in progress, the terrain has its own team, and although we have not met the 3 month goal and the work has taken longer than expected, we will be having an update soon.

thank you 

15 hours ago, Punkmonkey22 said:

Is there any chance of a refund to "return" the Afghan map if we don't like this style? It looks awful and I deeply regret wasting my money on a map I have barely used due to the terrible visuals.

please read our EULA  here regarding refunds. https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/support/license/

You bought an early access product which means the work is not completed, so you can expect updates and tweaks to the terrain as development continues. I hope you will see improvements to your liking during that time. 

thank you 

[saltyleon]

vor 36 Minuten schrieb BIGNEWY:

We have had newsletters to keep you all informed, and we are active here on the forum to answer questions which we have. We also have another newsletter today with development progress, and we will be having a patch soon hopefully. 

Hi @BIGNEWY,

I am happy to hear, that there is a new newsletter today, that has an update included about the progress on the Afghanistan map. I also have to say that the depth of information, we received in the last months was rather thin. Yes, ED informed about missed expectations and your intention to fix the situation (which needs more time). ED posted new WIP screenshots but they looked unfinished as well - so again, we have no idea of your quality goals for the map. For other topics, ED lately released very detailed white papers. For Afghanistan really wasn't that much information besides: we're working on it and we tell you, when its done.

Don't see my list as a threat towards ED. Early access is widely used. A few years ago, early access was still a new thing and people were more willing to invest, just because to get access early and for a better price. But over the years there also were tons of dissapointments in early access, therefore trust is becoming more and more important. And I would like to see ED building more trust into these long-term projects such maps and modules. 

Edited December 13, 2024 by saltyleon

[Boosterdog]

27 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

We have had newsletters to keep you all informed, and we are active here on the forum to answer questions which we have. We also have another newsletter today with development progress, and we will be having a patch soon hopefully. 

 

In fairness to us, the sum of all Newletter communication about this to date has been 2 paragraphs hinting at a "new approach to developing maps". One can only speculate as to what this is as that it the extent of what has been said. As for forum interaction, its been very tight lipped and reserved is perhaps the most charitable way I can put it. 

I dont think @saltyleon's expectations are unreasonable. Conversly, no one outside of ED knows how each map has been developed or over what time scale. So there is certainly a risk we run away with ourselves and assume thay have been developed almost in tandem to vastly differing standards and with little central oversight. Hence the consternation. A little transperency here and about what the plan actually is would perhaps go a long way. 

I look forward to the newsletter today and hope for something more that look down shots from 20000ft.

[BIGNEWY]

6 minutes ago, saltyleon said:

Hi @BIGNEWY,

I am happy to hear, that there is a new newsletter today, that has an update included about the progress on the Afghanistan map. I also have to say that the depth of information, we received in the last months was rather thin. Yes, ED informed about missed expectations and your intention to fix the situation (which needs more time). There is no showcase of what we can expect as final result, there is no roadmap. On other topics, ED lately release white papers. For Afghanistan really wasn't that much information besides: we're working on it and we tell you, when its done.

Don't see my list as a threat towards ED. Early access is widely used. A few years ago, early access was still a new thing and people were more willing to invest, just because to get access early and for a better price. But over the years there also were tons of dissapointments in early access, therefore trust is becoming more and more important. And I would like to see ED building more trust into these long-term projects such maps and modules. 

No problem, and we dont see your feedback as a threat, your perception and your feedback is important to us. I hope we can meet your and many other expectations in the future. 

best regard's 

bignewy

[Cab]

1 hour ago, saltyleon said:

• At initial early access release: The following areas/features are "finished"/"work in progress"/"coming later". From finished areas you can get an idea how the final product will look like.
• This is our roadmap for the product (map) from early access to the final product (and quality) [roadmap - months/planned releases/whatever]
• This is our goal for the quality of the final product (map) [image/video +optional article]
• Something went wrong/didn't meet our/your expectations on the product. We assessed the situation and are planning going forward this way. If you want to know more, ... [article]
• Our product needs more time to meet our/your expectations. If you want to know more, this is what we're intend to to do solve the issue ... [article]

That's what I wanna hear from every developer that uses the early access model to get early funding for product development. Because I need to trust the developer, that my investment in this unfinished product is worth the waiting time and the initial quality/state of the product can asure that the goals, the developer outlines, can be met. 

Okay, fair enough. To each his own. 
Personally, I don’t need that reiterated with every EA purchase.

[wilbur81]

9 hours ago, Beirut said:

Hope the Afghan map team get a visit and some pointers from the Iraq map team.

Yeah, I'm kind of wishing I'd saved my $60 and waited for Iraq, but I'm considering that cash a donation to ED for the 1000s of hours of fun they've provided me over the past years after I've only purchased a minimal number of DLCs compared to many in the community.  That said, anyone want to donate DCS: Iraq to me for Christmas?

I'm sure Afghanistan will get the love soon...

Edited December 13, 2024 by wilbur81

[Beirut]

28 minutes ago, wilbur81 said:

Yeah, I'm kind of wishing I'd saved my $60 and waited for Iraq, but I'm considering that cash a donation to ED for the 1000s of hours of fun they've provided me over the past years after I've only purchased a minimal number of DLCs compared to many in the community.  That said, anyone want to donate DCS: Iraq to me for Christmas?

I'm sure Afghanistan will get the love soon...

 

Hopefully the Afghan team will knock on the Iraq team's door and asks to borrow a cup of map tech.

 

And you're right, I'm sure the Afghan map will get brought up a notch, but it might not be soon.

 

 

[Boosterdog]

25 minutes ago, Beirut said:

 

Hopefully the Afghan team will knock on the Iraq team's door and asks to borrow a cup of map tech.

 

And you're right, I'm sure the Afghan map will get brought up a notch, but it might not be soon.

 

 

Todays Newsletter may give a clue to that. 

[Beirut]

13 minutes ago, Boosterdog said:

Todays Newsletter may give a clue to that. 

 

Hope so.

 

Just took a quick Afghan flight and it's definitely lesser than the Iraq map. But if the Iraq tech is brought over to the Afghan map it will be great. 

 

Bring this tech to the NTTR and I'll throw my money at ED with eager and reckless abandon.  

[Boosterdog]

4 hours ago, Boosterdog said:

 

I look forward to the newsletter today and hope for something more that look down shots from 20000ft.

Well I hoped. Just didnt get.

[Gambit21]

On 12/13/2024 at 5:19 AM, Beirut said:

 

Hopefully the Afghan team will knock on the Iraq team's door and asks to borrow a cup of map tech.

 

And you're right, I'm sure the Afghan map will get brought up a notch, but it might not be soon.

 

 

 

Iraq delivered what was promised with Afghanistan.

On the other hand to be fair...the settled areas on the Afghanistan map just blow my mind...I was impressed at release and I'm still impressed.

 

I've committed serious resources already to Afghanistan map in good faith...so I'm waiting for the promised "up high and down low" statement to be fulfilled with regard to the rest of the terrain however. I see what's possible with Iraq, I expect the same level of detail/quality with Afghanistan. 

This course-correction is the cause for the delay it seems.

 

[saltyleon]

Thanks to ED for this Afghanistan update. My points about communication are still something I would like to see addressed a bit better but ... the update today is impressive. Finally the terrain looks believable and those mountains are really stunning. The color palette was noticably improved as well. No more green glowing trees. Thanks alot.

Edited February 19 by saltyleon