fixed Problem refueling wingman S-3B and KC 135

[Tomcatter87]

Can confirm: In the F-14, my AI wingman joins the KC-135 MPRS, connects, and then stays there without ever finishing or obeying the rejoin command. I suspect he does not get fuel at all, because on recovery, "my" pilot transmitted a fuel state to the carrier that was really low - since it was not mine, it must have been my wingman's. 

[KevinAu]

5 hours ago, Flappie said:

That's exactly what I thought when I read the book yesterday evening, only the document is not very clear.

There's already an internal request to get back to 15°, but devs want concrete proof, not interpretations, for they don't want to be mislead every 15 days and redo the work all over again.

If you can provide an official doc saying tankers shouldn't exceed a 15° angle while refueling, that would be great.

 The 11/2013 version of ATP 56 has a note on page 2H-8 in the chapter about tanker formations that state:

2) Turns. To maintain position, all aircraft must start the turn over

the same geographical point. Succeeding tankers will therefore

start the turn after an appropriate delay, which will depend on

TAS and separation. The lead tanker should use 10o AOB for

turns up to and including 20o and 25o AOB for turns of more than

20o (if tanker national restrictions direct the use of AOB less than

25º, ATC should be informed). Any necessary track adjustment

due to wind in the AAR area is to be made on the straight legs;

the bank angle is not to be increased during the turn.

NOTE

SOME TANKERS WITH RECEIVER(S) IN CONTACT, ARE RESTRICTED

TO 20° AOB. SEE NATIONAL SRDs FOR DETAILS

 

So there it is, a note that restricts aob while refueling. A 25 degree banked turn is but a maximum. It is not what a pilot should strive for. A limitation sets a bound for us when we need to fix a problem, ie. you may go that steep if running out of airspace and need to tighten the turn, for example. In general, a decently flown tanker would strive to make the refueling process as easy as possible for the receiver, by using the standard 15 aob turn as a matter of course unless there is a need to bank harder. In this game, there are no airspace or atc restrictions, so just program the ai pilot again to use 15 degrees.

[Tomcatter87]

This bug can be reproduced easily, and it is NOT connected to the racetrack pattern. Just set up my tanker with normal wayponts, without circling task whatsoever, and still my wingman won't stop refueling. I'm pretty sure he does nonullt get fuel because his probe is outside the basket. 

[Flappie]

1 hour ago, Tomcatter87 said:

Just set up my tanker with normal wayponts, without circling task whatsoever, and still my wingman won't stop refueling.

I did in another thread, and the AI had no issue to refuel.

I don't even know which tanker you used, its speed, its altitude... which is why we ask for tracks.

[Flappie]

I ran an old track of mine and I can see several issues, especially with the S-3B (for all planes) and also with the Tomcat desperately trying to get fuel from a KC-135 MPRS.

There's an internal request to lower maximum AOB for tankers doing circuits/racetracks, from 25° to 15°. Hopefully, this action will solve current issues.

[Tomcatter87]

Thanks for ackowledging there is a bug. I do not think it is connected to altitude or speed - I had it happen with a KC-135 MPRS at 28k and an S-3 Recovery Tanker at 16k. It strikes my eye that the Tomcat's probe does not hit the probe, but the AI just stays there and does nothing.  Notice it was my AI wingman all the time - I don't know if flight of all-AI aircraft might have more success in refueling. It also happens if the tanker was straight and level, so I don't suppose it is related to angle of bank either. My guess would be that the AI planes somehow aim for a wrong spot of the basket, stay there and never finish tanking because they do not get any fuel. As you can see in my previous post, they will run low on fuel eventually. 

Regarding Flappie's asking for tracks: I usually refuel after quite a while of flying. With the current state of replays, I'm not sure if replays will be any helpful. Usually a mission that we've actually flown and a replay turn out to be something completely different.  

[Flappie]

There seems to be several different issues, some due to the bank angle, others due to something else. There's a fix in the making and it's not about bank angle, I'll see if the Tomcat gets fixed.

[Tritolo41]

I totally agree with you, I opened a ticket about it too, I think it has been taken into consideration. I don't understand why you didn't get a response from some DCS programmer confirming the bug and the future fix. However, it is frustrating to fly like this, because with each update one thing improves and another thing that was working well becomes worse.

[AdrianL]

See 

 

and 

 

[BIGNEWY]

threads merged

[42jeff]

• AI Aircraft. S-3B tanker has issues refuelling some AI aircraft in certain conditions - fixed.

We'll see.....

 

off to the editor...

[KevinAu]

So there’s still no fix yet for the tankers doing steep turns while refuelling and the failure of ai aircraft to take fuel from the other tankers?

[Flappie]

The next DCS update will fix the current issues.

EDIT: it just occured to me that this "next update" is already available. @KevinAu Have you tested it?

Edited February 19 by Flappie

[84-Simba]

Just now, Flappie said:

The next DCS update will fix the current issues.

Thx

Will this include that they bank left and right after their turn ?

I remember seeing this behaviour on AI planes a while back but not on tankers.

[Flappie]

5 minutes ago, 84-Simba said:

Will this include that they bank left and right after their turn ?

I remember seeing this behaviour on AI planes a while back but not on tankers.

Do you mean they should do this left and right move, and they currently don't?

Or do you mean they currently do it, and they shouldn't?

[84-Simba]

7 minutes ago, Flappie said:

Do you mean they should do this left and right move, and they currently don't?

Or do you mean they currently do it, and they shouldn't?

Sorry, my message is not clear.

Tankers (both KC-135 MPRS and S-3B) are doing that wing rock when they roll-out of their turn.

I don't think they should.

[KevinAu]

I’ll test the refuelling. I just saw that only the s-3 light and s-3 refuelling ai aircraft issues were mentioned in the list of fixes.

The ‘wing rock’ the other poster mentions would be with regard to the tankers aggressively banking left and right when they finish their 180 degree holding turns to track the straight portion of the race track course.

[Flappie]

6 minutes ago, KevinAu said:

I’ll test the refuelling. I just saw that only the s-3 light and s-3 refuelling ai aircraft issues were mentioned in the list of fixes.

Yes, but all AI AAR issues were fixed (Tomcats, KC-130, Hornet... we tested them all). Please report back here if you still see issues.

[KevinAu]

ok thanks. will do

[KevinAu]

Tested it with the kc130. Tanker behaved good. Stable 15 degree bank turns while refueling. Ai aircraft flights refueled without hangups. Thanks for fixing this.