Dcs should become more keyboard and mouse friendly

[Supernova-III]

19 hours ago, HC_Official said:

so there Should be a option to change the sensitivity of the keys

dunno how you think you can change sensitivity on a digital device

it's entirely possible to implement pretty precise mouse control. There are some good examples of this.

[HC_Official]

33 minutes ago, Supernova-III said:

it's entirely possible to implement pretty precise mouse control. There are some good examples of this.

yeah you can indeed do this on a mouse , but if you read my post I talking about sensitivity of keys

[SharpeXB]

8 hours ago, cfrag said:

It is neither, and can be trained.

Oh sure, with enough effort humans can train themselves to do anything. But why put that much effort in for a video game? There’s no point, you could just buy a simple joystick. 

8 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

You're describing a problem only you have mentioned in the <9 years I've been active on this forum, which makes me believe the "problem" is not as widespread as you think.

Something like 20-25% of players invert the Y axis so it’s not just me bottom line if you’re a non-inverted player using a mouse or keyboard to fly with is going to be very difficult. It’s not just the flying, it’s when you fly to “aim” the plane when shooting. You’re fighting a lifetime of computer use reflexes. Note the default setting is not “inverted” meaning the majority of players probably don’t alter it. The topic is of course rather widespread in gaming so it’s not just me.

https://gamecola.net/2020/10/first-person-view-can-you-tell-which-way-is-up/#:~:text=I classify non-inverted controllers,it's because there are people

Edited January 29 by SharpeXB

[MAXsenna]

27 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Something like 20-25% of players invert the Y axis so it’s not just me

I'm not sure what you're getting at. You said earlier that you don't in Er the axis when playing games. I also wrote that I've never seen anyone describing that "problem" here on the forums. So I assume that most users accepts that in an airplane, you pull to go up. With a keyboard, this is not hard. Being used to a game controller it can be at first, because all your muscle memory are in the thumbs, which you probably don't use in that way on a keyboard. 

32 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The topic is of course rather widespread in gaming so it’s not just me.

You can't compare FPS games to a flight sim. It's you. I repeat. You're the first I've ever seen mentioning this in this forum ever. Why do you even comment. It doesn't affect you and your HOTAS. 

We're way off topic now.

Cheers! 

[cfrag]

34 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But why put that much effort in for a video game?

Why put any effort into anything? Some people - who obviously aren't you - have different preferences, different from yours. Please believe me when I tell you that there is variety out there, and not everyone agrees with your proclivities. Theirs are as valid or invalid as yours. If a vendor decides to cater to more than one, that's valid too.

Somehow I feel like feeding a troll. Hopefully I'm not.

Edited January 29 by cfrag

[Supernova-III]

1 hour ago, HC_Official said:

yeah you can indeed do this on a mouse , but if you read my post I talking about sensitivity of keys

I'm too smart for this

[SharpeXB]

27 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

So I assume that most users accepts that in an airplane, you pull to go up. With a keyboard, this is not hard. Being used to a game controller it can be at first, because all your muscle memory are in the thumbs, which you probably don't use in that way on a keyboard.

Maybe it is just a me thing, but the majority of flight sim players probably don’t use a mouse and keyboard. Perhaps that’s part of the reason why. 

40 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Why put any effort into anything? Some people - who obviously aren't you - have different preferences, different from yours.

Sure, there’s nothing wrong about using any particular controller. It’s just a personal choice. Back to the topic… the problem you’d encounter like the OP states is that all these games or even modules here will handle keyboard inputs differently as that controller doesn’t represent a real life counterpart to emulate. It’s not just a matter of adapting or practice, it’s adapting to each game or module differently. In the long run you’re probably better off just using a flight stick and then that problem goes away.

[SharpeXB]

12 hours ago, cfrag said:

It is neither, and can be trained.

I’ll still submit that the Forward=Up orientation is the natural response. Obviously because if you just look at the controller and the screen they match one another. And that’s universally how every device with a screen and a joystick or d-pad or thumb stick works. Any controller for your TV remote, your car, computer, mouse, games, software etc. It’s universal*. And in many cases not adjustable because hardly anyone would do that. I get the part about being conditioned by old video games but in all likelihood those are the only players who invert this. The games listed there in that article are all nearly 30 old too. Yes training can accomplish anything but the trouble is you’d be conditioning a reflex that will end up being backward on so many other devices you can’t change. It’s too frustrating and for no reason.

That’s why I bought my first joystick

*I have a friend who’s an engineer with the space program, I’ll bet he knows the answer to the Apollo controller.

[MAXsenna]

40 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’ll still submit that the Forward=Up orientation is the natural response.

This is your opinion. I wonder what the default settings for MSFS on the Xbox are...  

40 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And that’s universally how every device with a screen and a joystick or d-pad or thumb stick works. Any controller for your TV remote, your car, computer, mouse, games, software etc.

Why do you have such a hardtime comprehending? You're talking about browsing lists the most natural way. We're talking about a flightsim. You got yourself a stick, and I assume you haven't inverted the Y axis. And I repeat, you are the only one who question this. And sorry if it hurts your feelings, but it is a you problem. There's no reason to compare with other games, and it doesn't even affect you, do why bother complaining and assume everyone else has a problem? Please don't answer. No one agrees with you. Take a hint. 

[cfrag]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I’ll still submit that the Forward=Up orientation is the natural response.

Except, of course, for a joystick in flight sim mode (as opposed to 2D navigation mode as it's used in CAT scanners or many other medical and engineering appliances that I know). Or an Apple Mouse wheel. "Natural Response" isn't natural at all, just what the predominant culture where you grew up in conditioned you to accept as 'normal'. Drive in England when you are conditioned to drive on the right side of the road, and see that your "natural" response is simply wrong (glancing left first when crossing the street can kill you there). Work with people who naturally read and write from right to left (and who use their left hand "naturally" to write) and then re-evaluate what you just thought of as "natural". It's not. It's just your conditioning. You (as I) probably grew up in a western-culture dominated society, and are conditioned to those norms. There is nothing natural nor innate about it. It just cultural convention.

And: Remember Ender's "The enemy gate is down" ("Ender's Game"). Directionality is merely a point of view.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Any controller for your TV remote, your car, computer, mouse, games, software etc. It’s universal

In he cultural sphere where you are, probably. Except when it's not (Apple Mouse Wheel). But usually all the things that you mentioned above are produced, marketed and sold for your cultural sphere. And in different set-ups for other,

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

And in many cases not adjustable because hardly anyone would do that.

... in that market, perhaps. And because you can get an upsell premium for devices that do allow customization, so there is a business impetus to upsell.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Yes training can accomplish anything but the trouble is you’d be conditioning a reflex that will end up being backward on so many other devices you can’t change.

I wish you would assert less and reflect more. Maybe you really can't change your conditioning, and that would be that. I have no trouble switching between forward = down and forward = up in different (very similar) contexts when I go from my Windows machine to my Mac (multiple times each day). Humans can effortlessly train muscle memory, especially if it is accompanied by aural and visual stimuli. Motorcyclists know that they have to invert left/right steering when they exceed some 10 mph. It happens 'naturally' (automatically), you do it without thinking. I highly recommend that you read up or research these things instead of (what I think you are doing) extrapolating from your beliefs how things may work.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s too frustrating and for no reason.

I recommend that you add the occasional "IMHO" or "I believe" to your writings. It softens your assertions of fact into what I surmise they are: statements of belief. I think that "Its too frustrating to me, and I see no reason" would have been a much more accurate reflection of your thoughts. 

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I’ll bet he knows the answer to the Apollo controller.

There was nothing wrong with the Apollo controller. The problem was that it was constructed for landing vertically, so looking forward and down was 'forward', and the controls where calibrated for that. When docking, however, the Lunar Module moved in the opposite direction, and the pilots looked up as their forward, cycling all control directions. Yeah, they trained for that. No, nothing about that was natural. All was convention. And human adaptability. 

Edited January 29 by cfrag

[LucShep]

On 1/28/2025 at 3:35 PM, mrbluegame said:

As a keyboard and mouse player I think dcs should become more keyboard and mouse friendly because there are some people out there that prefer to play on keyboard and mouse so there Should be a option to change the sensitivity of the keys you press on all planes just like you can with the f-4e and make old modules support keyboard and mouse more

DCS with a keyboard+mouse?  
I commend you, really.  You've decided to invest time and effort into an already very challenging sim/game, and then made it as hard as possible for you.

Seriously, I get why people don't want to get a HOTAS+Pedals setup (money and space complications, or DCS being used just as occasional/casual game, among other reasons).

But something like the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro Joystick is just $35 (thirty five dollars?!?) and it will be a whole universe of improvement over what you're used to.
For such little money it may satisfy so much, probably make you feel so much more invested into combat-flight-sims, that the investment on a HOTAS feels right at some point.

https://www.logitechg.com/en-us/products/space/extreme-3d-pro-joystick.html

 

 

Edited January 29 by LucShep
added video review

[Exorcet]

19 minutes ago, LucShep said:

But something like the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro Joystick is just $35 (thirty five dollars?!?) and it will be a whole universe of improvement over what you're used to.
For such little money it may satisfy so much, probably make you feel so much more invested into combat-flight-sims, that the investment on a HOTAS feels right at some point.

 

So, getting a HOTAS for DCS is pretty common sense, but even in that case you don't necessarily eliminate the keyboard nor the issues mentioned in this thread. We have a fair number of aircraft at this point and they don't all function this same. My current setup is pretty nice for the teen series, but the Viggen with its extra control stick, has proven a bit problematic. So some adjustability on how the keyboard functions is nice. I am planning to upgrade my HOTAS at some point and hopefully I'll end up with more non key inputs for planes like the Viggen, but it's always nice to have a fallback for whatever reason.

In the past I've also done limited DCS on a laptop for testing or whatever. Having nicer keyboard controls for that situation would also come in handy.

[cfrag]

10 minutes ago, PLUTON said:

we cannot simulate without a joystick and without an accelerator a flight like in reality, or if you do not find logical you must stay on arcade games because that is what the mouse and keyboard will bring you

Huh. Funny you should say that. And I now posit that unless you use VR and a 4+DOF motion platform, we cannot simulate a flight-like reality, and you must stay on arcade games or, better yet, look at images of flight - bacause that is all you can ever have in non-VR, unmoving space.

Some people seem to like flying with keyboard and mouse. More power to them. I certainly don't. But imposing arbitrary standards what constitutes 'proper' flight simming doesn't help. My neighbor is vegan and runs 10 miles each day. She claims to like both. I have no reason to disbelieve her and would never tell her that true taste requires meat and only little exercise, although it seems true to me.

Edited January 29 by cfrag

[PLUTON]

imagine a lack of experience when I hear that we are going to simulate a plane or helicopter flight with a keyboard and a mouse.
(Except lack of means and there I would understand better) we cannot simulate without a joystick and without an accelerator a flight like in reality, or if you find it logical to stay with a keyboard and a mouse you must stay on the arcade games because that is what they will bring you.
TRY and you will see all the interest of having at least a joystick
Good flight to you anyway.
Of course you have every right to play on DCS but do not ask DCS who every day make enormous efforts so that their simulator is as realistic as possible to bring this beautiful simulator to the rank of an arcade game
In the meantime I wish you good flights.

 

[PLUTON]

Mr. cfrag I also think like you
but saying what people want to hear does not always help them, on the other hand I think without being any one that a simulator like DCS costs a certain price and my words were that for this price it is better that this simu brings you the best possible experience and that an arcade game brings you for what it is worth.
It was just a piece of advice not a criticism but I see that in each discussion there is always someone who deviates from the subject, too bad

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, cfrag said:

Except, of course, for a joystick in flight sim mode

Right. That’s the natural orientation for a flight stick hence a good reason to use one. 

1 hour ago, cfrag said:

Drive in England when you are conditioned to drive on the right side of the road, and see that your "natural" response is simply wrong (glancing left first when crossing the street can kill you there).

That’s what happens when you mess with someone’s instinctive reactions. There’s not a right or wrong answer for that one unless you wear a sword.

1 hour ago, cfrag said:

In he cultural sphere where you are, probably.

You mean planet earth? Yes…

1 hour ago, cfrag said:

Maybe you really can't change your conditioning, and that would be that.

The problem is, why would you? Maybe I’ll try driving on alternate sides of the road every day to broaden my horizons

1 hour ago, cfrag said:

There was nothing wrong with the Apollo controller.

And that’s logical for such a control because it reflects exactly what the user is looking at. Just like a normal controller is oriented to the screen.  Literally every controller in your daily life is oriented the logical way. Except in old video games…
 

Edited January 29 by SharpeXB

[cfrag]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And that’s logical for such a control because it reflects exactly what the user is looking at.

Except that pushing it forward meant increase path inclination during descent, and pushing it forward during docking meant increase yaw. 

Yeah, you are trolling. Thank you for engaging with me.

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Except that pushing it forward meant increase path inclination during descent, and pushing it forward during docking meant increase yaw. 

Yeah, you are trolling. Thank you for engaging with me.

You gotta reach for a pretty odd example there. Good thing there wasn’t a Betty voice in the LEM that yelled PULL UP! PULL UP!

[MAXsenna]

You gotta reach for a pretty odd example there. Good thing there wasn’t a Betty voice in the LEM that yelled PULL UP! PULL UP!

You know, it just dawned on me! You have never ever driven an excavator. Guess how the controls work there. (Rotor tilts are awesome!)
Tip solely for you. If you ever gonna drive one, make sure no one is inside the radius of the arm.
It's kind of funny it was easier to learn than mastering AAR, (in which I have succeeded), in DCS.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[Beirut]

On 1/28/2025 at 10:35 AM, mrbluegame said:

As a keyboard and mouse player I think dcs should become more keyboard and mouse friendly because there are some people out there that prefer to play on keyboard and mouse so there Should be a option to change the sensitivity of the keys you press on all planes just like you can with the f-4e and make old modules support keyboard and mouse more

 

Honestly, playing DCS with a keyboard and mouse would be like playing a first person shooter with a steering wheel.

 

You can get a perfectly good flightstick for $30, get the Voice Attack demo for free, and your flying fun will increase 1000% on the spot.

[mrbluegame]

7 hours ago, LucShep said:

DCS with a keyboard+mouse?  
I commend you, really.  You've decided to invest time and effort into an already very challenging sim/game, and then made it as hard as possible for you.

Seriously, I get why people don't want to get a HOTAS+Pedals setup (money and space complications, or DCS being used just as occasional/casual game, among other reasons).

But something like the Logitech Extreme 3D Pro Joystick is just $35 (thirty five dollars?!?) and it will be a whole universe of improvement over what you're used to.
For such little money it may satisfy so much, probably make you feel so much more invested into combat-flight-sims, that the investment on a HOTAS feels right at some point.

https://www.logitechg.com/en-us/products/space/extreme-3d-pro-joystick.html

 

 

when i first started out with dcs i knew nothing about it i was constantly crashing in the su-25t while on the ground and wasn't able to take off but for some reason i didnt just give up i kept trying on keyboard and mouse and now today i fly just fine with helicopters and alot of planes including the f-14 even though the roll is hypersensitive but the whole purpose of this forum is i wanted more planes to have lbf just like the f-4e. It can be annoying to fly a plane with hypersensitive control sometimes so i also fear a little bit for the eurofighter and hopefully the mig 29 full fidelity would not be the same too

[mrbluegame]

6 hours ago, PLUTON said:

imagine a lack of experience when I hear that we are going to simulate a plane or helicopter flight with a keyboard and a mouse.
(Except lack of means and there I would understand better) we cannot simulate without a joystick and without an accelerator a flight like in reality, or if you find it logical to stay with a keyboard and a mouse you must stay on the arcade games because that is what they will bring you.
TRY and you will see all the interest of having at least a joystick
Good flight to you anyway.
Of course you have every right to play on DCS but do not ask DCS who every day make enormous efforts so that their simulator is as realistic as possible to bring this beautiful simulator to the rank of an arcade game
In the meantime I wish you good flights.

 

respectfully i slightly disagrees with you i get your idea of how it can make dcs more arcade like and i do not want dcs to be more aracde like too but if only ibf was added to planes i think it would be just fine after all if heatblur did it on their f-4e i think other planes could have it too

2 hours ago, Beirut said:

 

Honestly, playing DCS with a keyboard and mouse would be like playing a first person shooter with a steering wheel.

 

You can get a perfectly good flightstick for $30, get the Voice Attack demo for free, and your flying fun will increase 1000% on the spot.

yeah i know it sound goofy but thats how i started and i always just prefer to fly with a keyboard and mouse only

[MAXsenna]

when i first started out with dcs i knew nothing about it i was constantly crashing in the su-25t while on the ground and wasn't able to take off but for some reason i didnt just give up i kept trying on keyboard and mouse and now today i fly just fine with helicopters and alot of planes including the f-14 even though the roll is hypersensitive but the whole purpose of this forum is i wanted more planes to have lbf just like the f-4e. It can be annoying to fly a plane with hypersensitive control sometimes so i also fear a little bit for the eurofighter and hopefully the mig 29 full fidelity would not be the same too

I do agree with those who says that a stick, or rather a HOTAS (with pedals), even a game controller would be better than a keyboard (and mouse), is the best way to enjoy this sim. (Along with with multiple button boxes, a headtracker and VoiceAttack of course).
That said. Your request is fully valid for newcomers to enjoy and have a better initial experience, before they commit to diving down the unavoidable expensive rabbit hole.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[mrbluegame]

1 minute ago, MAXsenna said:

I do agree with those who says that a stick, or rather a HOTAS (with pedals), even a game controller would be better than a keyboard (and mouse), is the best way to enjoy this sim. (Along with with multiple button boxes, a headtracker and VoiceAttack of course).
That said. Your request is fully valid for newcomers to enjoy and have a better initial experience, before they commit to diving down the unavoidable expensive rabbit hole.
Cheers!

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk
 

i actually tired doing controller once but it did not go well plus the controller i had did have those extra button but the pieces was missing

Edited January 30 by mrbluegame

[Beirut]

4 minutes ago, mrbluegame said:

yeah i know it sound goofy but thats how i started and i always just prefer to fly with a keyboard and mouse only

 

Well the good thing is the flightstick awaits and when you do switch over, you're going to have a great time. 

 

Something to look forward to.