How much do you use rudder pedals *after* take-off?

[Sunbather]

Right now, I don't have rudder pedals and that won't change for the foreseeable future (space, money, cable chaos etc.). However, I do have a twist stick and I have zero problems with modern jets, no problems yet with the F-4E and I can even comfortably fly the AH-64, especially when I use force trim.

Now, I see it mentioned a lot that rudder pedals are WW2 really need rudder pedals. How true is that *after* I've already managed to take off? I would imagine I need them in dogfights to edge me into just the right position to get the enemy in my sights but for what else do I really need rudder pedals?

 

Inb4: Yes, I know that in general having rudder pedals is a must and will change the feel and immersion. It will come, just not now. I basically want to know if I am able to enjoy WW2 in DCS without rudder pedals or if I should wait until I get rudder pedals.

I will also trial the Bf-109 in the next few days and see for myself but I won't spot the nuances that might require a rudder pedal.

[71st_AH Rob]

Constantly. They're necessary for coordinated flight which will make you more accurate a shot and landing is also much easier.

[Gunfreak]

It does depend on the aircraft. In the Spitfire you can get away with not using it that much.

But in the P47. You'll need vigorous pedaling to keep the aircraft flying when flying at it's limits. 

[Art-J]

All warbirds have "auto rudder" and "takeoff assist" special options available, which are supposed to help players without any rudder controller (or with a crappy one). Both on the ground and in flight. I don't know how effective they really are, though, never used them.

58 minutes ago, Sunbather said:

I will also trial the Bf-109 in the next few days and see for myself but I won't spot the nuances that might require a rudder pedal.

Ha! Good luck. You will trial the most b#tchy plane wich requires the most rudder input just to takeoff and land safely in one piece  . I'm not even sure if assists will suffice here.

In either case, as noted above, it depends a lot on the plane itself. Some warbirds have rudder trim (making pedals not necessary in cruise flight), but some of them do not. Some require rudder even to just to taxi on the ground (Brit ones, because they use rudder to activate pneumatic differential wheel brakes), the others do not.

Trialing these planes one by one seems to be the most sensible solution, go for it.

[Gharhoud]

The reason that you need a rudder for strong piston wing WWII aircraft like BF-109 or FW-190 is: you have to counteract the torque produced by the propeller or/and the crosswind component. Let us assume, the propeller is turning e.g. to the right. Due to Newtons 3. Law (action equal reaction), the aircraft will react with a left turn moment. The more mass the propeller has and the faster (which is the case during takeoff) the propeller is turning, the higher the torque.  At the end of the second WW a lot of very young German recruited pilots died during there short insufficiend training on takeoff, because they set too high power without compensating the high torque with the rudder.

[erniedaoage]

You can enjoy DCS with whatever you have. I bet some people are even flying with a xbox controller or use keyboard and mouse. It just gets more "realistic" or in a better term "immersive" with added controllers. My only advice to you is, when you go for rudder pedals, get some proper ones around the 200 price segment. Because if you go in for a metal construction, the pedals will last forever. When you buy cheap plastic ones, there comes a point where the crap is breaking apart somewhere and usually most of them use pots instead of hall effect sensors. 

[Tzigy]

make some space, steal some money and just get rudder pedals; you will NOT regret it

[peachmonkey]

Can you fly without a rudder? Sure.

Will you be able to perform complicated maneuvers seen in videos? Nopes.

But you can always start with a joystick that has a twist axis, it'll emulate the rudder enough to understand that there's something there and will keep you interested in pursuing the goal of getting the actual pedals. But a twist axis itself is a poor substitute for the actual pedals simply because you're trying to maneuver in 3 axis using only one hand (pitch/roll/rudder).

In short:  there has never been a case where a player bought themselves some great rudder pedal and then painfully regretted the purchase. You'll only regret it if you buy some crap, like the 'slider' pedals from Thrustmaster TFRP.  Look for the pedals with a cantilever mechanism, they are more expensive but are definitely worth their price.

[unlikely_spider]

Fly the Hornet or Viper instead and you won't need them at all

[Freakmeister51]

When flying the Yak-52, it doesn’t fly straight anyway so you cannot, not use the rudder pedals.

[NinpoFox]

I started with a Saitek X-55 Rhino HOTAS which has a twist stick for rudder. It worked fine and you can tune the axis to suit your needs. I had no problem dogfighting or lining up on ground targets while flying a P-47, P-51, or Bf-109. Like anything else, it just takes practice. 

Over time and as I had funds ,I upgraded to a higher quality HOTAS set with rudder pedals. It took a few weeks to change my muscle memory from trying to twist the stick to pushing on the pedals. 

I don’t think beginning without rudder pedals will affect your enjoyment. Especially if someone has not used them before, but rudder pedals will make the experience more immersive.

[Sunbather]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb 71st_AH Rob:

Constantly. They're necessary for coordinated flight which will make you more accurate a shot and landing is also much easier.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Gunfreak:

It does depend on the aircraft. In the Spitfire you can get away with not using it that much.

But in the P47. You'll need vigorous pedaling to keep the aircraft flying when flying at it's limits. 

Thank you guys for the quick response. I thought as much.

 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Art-J:

All warbirds have "auto rudder" and "takeoff assist" special options available, which are supposed to help players without any rudder controller (or with a crappy one). Both on the ground and in flight. I don't know how effective they really are, though, never used them.

Ha! Good luck. You will trial the most b#tchy plane wich requires the most rudder input just to takeoff and land safely in one piece  . I'm not even sure if assists will suffice here.

In either case, as noted above, it depends a lot on the plane itself. Some warbirds have rudder trim (making pedals not necessary in cruise flight), but some of them do not. Some require rudder even to just to taxi on the ground (Brit ones, because they use rudder to activate pneumatic differential wheel brakes), the others do not.

Trialing these planes one by one seems to be the most sensible solution, go for it.

I didn't know there was auto rudder and takeoff assist!

Yeah, I've decided on a German plane because I am an Axis main in WW2 games. And the Fw 190s have the reputation of being buggy which would make my beginner's experience even worse, I reckon. Still, I am also going to trial the P-51!

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Gharhoud:

The reason that you need a rudder for strong piston wing WWII aircraft like BF-109 or FW-190 is: you have to counteract the torque produced by the propeller or/and the crosswind component. Let us assume, the propeller is turning e.g. to the right. Due to Newtons 3. Law (action equal reaction), the aircraft will react with a left turn moment. The more mass the propeller has and the faster (which is the case during takeoff) the propeller is turning, the higher the torque.  At the end of the second WW a lot of very young German recruited pilots died during there short insufficiend training on takeoff, because they set too high power without compensating the high torque with the rudder.

Thanks for the technical explantion. I am still a noob when it comes to flight physics, especially propeller planes, or piston engined planes as they are apparently called, haha.

So it is in a very basic sense the same as the torque you have to apply when flying rotor wing, I guess.

 

vor 1 Stunde schrieb erniedaoage:

You can enjoy DCS with whatever you have. I bet some people are even flying with a xbox controller or use keyboard and mouse. It just gets more "realistic" or in a better term "immersive" with added controllers. My only advice to you is, when you go for rudder pedals, get some proper ones around the 200 price segment. Because if you go in for a metal construction, the pedals will last forever. When you buy cheap plastic ones, there comes a point where the crap is breaking apart somewhere and usually most of them use pots instead of hall effect sensors. 

vor 55 Minuten schrieb peachmonkey:

Can you fly without a rudder? Sure.

Will you be able to perform complicated maneuvers seen in videos? Nopes.

But you can always start with a joystick that has a twist axis, it'll emulate the rudder enough to understand that there's something there and will keep you interested in pursuing the goal of getting the actual pedals. But a twist axis itself is a poor substitute for the actual pedals simply because you're trying to maneuver in 3 axis using only one hand (pitch/roll/rudder).

In short:  there has never been a case where a player bought themselves some great rudder pedal and then painfully regretted the purchase. You'll only regret it if you buy some crap, like the 'slider' pedals from Thrustmaster TFRP.  Look for the pedals with a cantilever mechanism, they are more expensive but are definitely worth their price.

Funny thing is, I did purchase some rudder pedals >200€ and the experience was NOT good. Too many flaws for such an expensive product. Which kinda left me frustrated. I will buy rudder pedals eventually but right now I am fed up. And since I found out that I can fly the Apache without rudder pedals, I am somewhat content for now anyways.

But yeah, I've already learned that you shouldn't buy cheap when it comes to flight gear. I had the Thrustmaster T-16000 for about 2 hours until I decided to buy a better one, hahaha. Even as beginner, the thing just felt too cheap and unprecise and the layout didn't make much sense either.

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb Tzigy:

make some space, steal some money and just get rudder pedals; you will NOT regret it

Generally, this is good advice but see my previous response just above. Also, there is not much space to make in a cramped 1-room-apartment. But I am working on it.

Right now, I am also more eager to spend the money on new modules and maps. And it's a lot of modules and maps you can buy for 250€ on a DCS sale.

 

vor 37 Minuten schrieb Freakmeister51:

When flying the Yak-52, it doesn’t fly straight anyway so you cannot, not use the rudder pedals.

I understand this now. Thanks for adding your input though!

 

vor 31 Minuten schrieb NinpoFox:

I started with a Saitek X-55 Rhino HOTAS which has a twist stick for rudder. It worked fine and you can tune the axis to suit your needs. I had no problem dogfighting or lining up on ground targets while flying a P-47, P-51, or Bf-109. Like anything else, it just takes practice. 

Over time and as I had funds ,I upgraded to a higher quality HOTAS set with rudder pedals. It took a few weeks to change my muscle memory from trying to twist the stick to pushing on the pedals. 

I don’t think beginning without rudder pedals will affect your enjoyment. Especially if someone has not used them before, but rudder pedals will make the experience more immersive.

Thanks for ending on such an optimistic note!

The muscle memory thing is a thing, I've experienced this in other areas of life already. But on the upside: it will be like a new experience when I finally have rudder pedals. I reckon that a lot of jets, planes and helicopters will feel much different once I've upgraded my gear.

 

@ all: thanks again for taking the time to respond!

[Art-J]

By the way, do you own racing wheel & pedals by any chance? Many flight sim folks also play racing sims (myself included).

The reason I ask is - one can use racing pedals as a temporary solution for rudder control, in spite of somewhat different kinematics of such device. Not a perfect long-term option, but still better than not having any analog yaw control. I used to do that for quite a while before I got proper flight sim pedals.

[Sunbather]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Art-J:

By the way, do you own racing wheel & pedals by any chance? Many flight sim folks also play racing sims (myself included).

The reason I ask is - one can use racing pedals as a temporary solution for rudder control, in spite of somewhat different kinematics of such device. Not a perfect long-term option, but still better than not having any analog yaw control. I used to do that for quite a while before I got proper flight sim pedals.

Unfortunately, no. I had some racing gear as a kid, and I think it was a pretty expensive one but I am afraid I sold it. It would be the perfect temporary solution!

[Sunbather]

Reporting back with my findings: it might no be beautiful flying but once I am in the air, I rarely need to use my twist axis for rudder adjustments. The takeoff procedure requires some acrobatics, apart from that I find flying the P-51 and the Bf-109 comfortable for my standards.

Regarding the WW2 experience: I appreciate the sound effects of guns and drag, the flight model and how intimate the cockpits feel compared to other WW2 flight sims (probably because you know that you can actually click things). But what use does it have? The first training mission with the P-51, a humvee spawned right next to me. I downloaded the Normandy map and the WW2 asset pack: zero (0!) missions for neither the P-51 nor the Bf-109, instant action missions ridiculously low, zero training missions, WW2 asset pack gives me 2 of the same (?) missions for the Persian Gulf map but none for Caucasus or Normandy. In addition, and although I had never issues with LOD and draw distance on maps, the Normandy map suffers from horrible pop-ins. I mean like from 5km away, whole towns are fading into fog. And don't let me start with the whoefully little amount of AI planes.

Sorry for the rant but I really understand now why people call the WW2 experience in DCS a lackluster one. And in my opinion, that's a euphemism. It's half-baked with little regard for immersion.

But I write this not to vent but to add my voice to the many voices that demand a proper treatment of the WW2 aspect in DCS. And no, just having a Pacific map won't cut it because it will likely be just as half-baked as the Western Front, mabye even less baked regarding how little actual planes are announced for that theatre.

 

[Bowie]

On 1/30/2025 at 9:44 AM, Sunbather said:

Right now, I don't have rudder pedals and that won't change for the foreseeable future (space, money, cable chaos etc.). However, I do have a twist stick and I have zero problems with modern jets, no problems yet with the F-4E and I can even comfortably fly the AH-64, especially when I use force trim.

Now, I see it mentioned a lot that rudder pedals are WW2 really need rudder pedals. How true is that *after* I've already managed to take off? I would imagine I need them in dogfights to edge me into just the right position to get the enemy in my sights but for what else do I really need rudder pedals?

 

Inb4: Yes, I know that in general having rudder pedals is a must and will change the feel and immersion. It will come, just not now. I basically want to know if I am able to enjoy WW2 in DCS without rudder pedals or if I should wait until I get rudder pedals.

I will also trial the Bf-109 in the next few days and see for myself but I won't spot the nuances that might require a rudder pedal.

 

Fly predominantly DCS/WWII, w/ a Logitech 3D EXTREME PRO, that has the twist-grip rudder.

Can't see operating w/o it.

Especially w/ the Bf 109, which lacks the rudder trim capacity of the P-51, and only has a preset trim tab.

 

Bowie

[peachmonkey]

5 hours ago, Sunbather said:

Sorry for the rant but I really understand now why people call the WW2 experience in DCS a lackluster one. And in my opinion, that's a euphemism. It's half-baked with little regard for immersion.

But I write this not to vent but to add my voice to the many voices that demand a proper treatment of the WW2 aspect in DCS. And no, just having a Pacific map won't cut it because it will likely be just as half-baked as the Western Front, mabye even less baked regarding how little actual planes are announced for that theatre.

I feel your pain, indeed there's much to be desired in the novice ww2 content in DCS. Whenever you raise the topic with the ed's bigwigs their response is always:  "ww2 team is small. DCS is a sand-box simulator", which means "figure it out, it's your problem". Luckily, the ww2 community is very engaging and are ready to help you with your questions in module learning, their operation, and there are a lot of folks that have an in-depth knowledge of historical mission aspects of our ww2 aircraft.

For missions, I recommend you browse through the user created mission files in the below link. It'll show you single mission files for P51, and you can modify the filter (change the Unit filter) to see the missions for other airplanes:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/filter/type-is-single/unit-is-p-51d/apply/

salute!

edit:  once you're done with the single player missions, you can always load into Multiplayer servers and try it out there. There are plenty of 'training' servers available, so don't worry about running into some hotshots ruining your experience.

Edited February 2 by peachmonkey

[Sunbather]

vor 48 Minuten schrieb peachmonkey:

I feel your pain, indeed there's much to be desired in the novice ww2 content in DCS. Whenever you raise the topic with the ed's bigwigs their response is always:  "ww2 team is small. DCS is a sand-box simulator", which means "figure it out, it's your problem". Luckily, the ww2 community is very engaging and are ready to help you with your questions in module learning, their operation, and there are a lot of folks that have an in-depth knowledge of historical mission aspects of our ww2 aircraft.

For missions, I recommend you browse through the user created mission files in the below link. It'll show you single mission files for P51, and you can modify the filter (change the Unit filter) to see the missions for other airplanes:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/filter/type-is-single/unit-is-p-51d/apply/

salute!

edit:  once you're done with the single player missions, you can always load into Multiplayer servers and try it out there. There are plenty of 'training' servers available, so don't worry about running into some hotshots ruining your experience.

Thanks for the response! For now, I am strictly singleplayer for now though and the amount of user content is unfortunately small, especially for the Normandy map.

On the brightside, the Normandy map is much better than it was earlier today. I suspect it was a faulty instant mission or a crappy weather preset. It really looked like all my graphics were set to the lowest settings.

I did create a mission with the Briefing Room app and it was fun but yeah, the missing variety of airplanes and available missions (e.g. bomber escort) is just painful.

I will probably buy into the whole DCS WW2 'experience' eventually but for now I rather invest my money in a more complete WW2 flight sim.

[Waffle 1-1]

5 hours ago, Sunbather said:

Sorry for the rant but I really understand now why people call the WW2 experience in DCS a lackluster one. And in my opinion, that's a euphemism. It's half-baked with little regard for immersion.

It’s a tricky one. The standard single player stuff is boring. Instant action missions make no sense from the perspective of WW2 warfare and there’s very few standard single player missions. The campaigns that you get with the warbirds are a joke. Which leaves you the paid campaigns or multiplayer. 

The paid campaigns can be excellent. I have been loving almost every minute of the Reflected campaigns I have flown and am flying. They are well thought out, you get a more immersive feeling and they balance being in the action with a strong focus on surviving rather than becoming an ace ten times over.

The multiplayer business is currently not for me. I find it hard to not be able to pause and get some other stuff done when it pops up. I’m sure that will change again one day, and I am somewhat looking forward to Grayflag WW2. However if you have the time, I have found folks on even the more hardcore servers to be very friendly to morons like myself.

I have tried to love “the other ww2 sim” as I have tried to love “the other F16 sim” but their dated, clumsy and clunky user interfaces keep me from playing them often. In other words: I’m used to DCS and I can deal with its inconsistencies better than with another layout and approach. I also find it easier to click around in a cockpit than to remember key bindings, so there’s that too.

Each game has pros and cons. This is the game I prefer but I can see the good side of the others too.

[peachmonkey]

1 hour ago, Sunbather said:

On the brightside, the Normandy map is much better than it was earlier today. I suspect it was a faulty instant mission or a crappy weather preset. It really looked like all my graphics were set to the lowest settings.

As far as "low graphics preset" for Normandy:  it may be due to the fact you have a Normandy 1 map only. The updated version of Normandy (Normandy v2) requires a paid upgrade (~$14, I believe), it will unlock the high level detail in the map.

I hear ya, go where your heart takes you   I've played Il2Box for 4 years prior to diving into DCS, and even though IL2 has a lot more 'battlefield' content I grew tired of it once I learned all 'gaming' aspects of the sim, and wanted something a bit more challenging as far as the flight model/system damage goes. DCS fills that niche quite nicely. The DCS sound design alone (true engine and weapon sound recordings, directional sound design, etc) is levels higher than the other sims with their synthetic sound engines.