Ground AI 2.0

[MarkP]

Hello,

something need to happen with the Ground AI since its starting to spoil the fun especially when flying helicopters.

Im in a campaign in a huey and there are 2 insurgents with AK47 on a bridge. While i am keeping my distance, doing 60kts circles - my door gunners kinda peppering them:

Ground AI fire 3 shots which are just the perfect snipershots, my Tailrotor breaks, i crash. 60min mission over.

Thats somewhat crazy

[draconus]

Should be just reported with a track here:

https://forum.dcs.world/forum/1186-ground-ai-bugs-non-combined-arms/

No need for AI overhaul to fix accuracy - it's part of current implementation and works fine for many units.

[MarkP]

Is it a bug or not? I dont think it is, i think it needs an overhaul. Do you fly helicopter? DO you like how accurate the AI is? I highly doubt it.

Mind you i dont fly WW2 so i cant comment on the flak. But it happens with Jets also. How can an unguided AAA hit a Jet doing 500kts? Its just beyond me.

i can uplaod it, just not sure if a 60min flight before i got sniped out of the sky is useful at all?

[Dragon1-1]

10 hours ago, draconus said:

No need for AI overhaul to fix accuracy - it's part of current implementation and works fine for many units.

Wrong. This video applies only to WWII flak. It does not address modern infantry, particularly BMPs firing their cannons like a radar guided platform, at targets they realistically shouldn't even be able to aim at, due to angular limits of their gunsights. You can replicate this easily with ZU-23, which displays none of the behavior WWII flak do, despite being equipped with a rather unsophisticated (by modern standards) AA gunsight.

In fact, this very video does also display some problems with WWII flak, such as being able to aim Flak 88s at a Spitfire flying at 500ft, way outside the envelope. Germans at the time used dime delay fuzes on their flak shells, and those fuzes had a lower limit. It also displays accuracy of both heavy and light flak that seems more in line with today's highly trained air defense troops than with an average WWII-era emplacement.

[bephanten]

11 hours ago, draconus said:

Should be just reported with a track here:

https://forum.dcs.world/forum/1186-ground-ai-bugs-non-combined-arms/

No need for AI overhaul to fix accuracy - it's part of current implementation and works fine for many units.

would like to see the same setup, with player controlled plane as target.

[draconus]

It's all been reported and is WIP afaik.

If you have new info about specific units upload it there. Of course not 1 hour long tracks - make short mission showing the problem and save a 1 min. track instead.

10 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

In fact, this very video does also display some problems with WWII flak, such as being able to aim Flak 88s at a Spitfire flying at 500ft, way outside the envelope.

It's not only about target speed. It's also about angle tracking speed. 1M target flying straight at you can be easy target. Slow helicopter making close pass can be hard to hit with big gun.

And why would you think Germans AA crews weren't trained enough during WWII?

To be clear, again, I didn't say AI doesn't need fixing - I said it doesn't need total overhaul becuase all their limitation functions are already implemented - it just needs tuning for realism (range, speed of angle tracking, visor/detection limits...).

[Dragon1-1]

6 hours ago, draconus said:

And why would you think Germans AA crews weren't trained enough during WWII?

Because they were often manned by children? And even early in the war, when they were adults who did receive peacetime training, it was nowhere near as through or professional as it is today, not to mention it was done a lot faster than today. They simply did not have our teaching methods (some of which came about as a result of analyzing soldiers' performance in WWII), or even as much time, including practice on realistic targets, that a modern NATO soldier spends training. It might seem that real field experience, which they had plenty of opportunity to get, would suffice, but in practice, in a situation with multiple flak guns firing at a target, you don't even get any feedback on whether it was your shot that got the target or someone else's.

Take a look at this guy's posts if you want to get an idea of what it takes to be a modern(-ish, actually ODS era) AdA soldier. He's got some great stories in general:
https://old.reddit.com/r/MilitaryStories/comments/t6z5wb/pfc_bikerjedi_shoots_a_missile_or_our_hero_is/

Now contrast with this interview with a WWII German flak veteran:
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/flak-gunner-for-the-luftwaffe/

It's a real eye-opener, especially if you're familiar with modern training paradigms, which simply didn't exist in WWII era.

[Gunfreak]

22 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Wrong. This video applies only to WWII flak. It does not address modern infantry, particularly BMPs firing their cannons like a radar guided platform, at targets they realistically shouldn't even be able to aim at, due to angular limits of their gunsights. You can replicate this easily with ZU-23, which displays none of the behavior WWII flak do, despite being equipped with a rather unsophisticated (by modern standards) AA gunsight.

In fact, this very video does also display some problems with WWII flak, such as being able to aim Flak 88s at a Spitfire flying at 500ft, way outside the envelope. Germans at the time used dime delay fuzes on their flak shells, and those fuzes had a lower limit. It also displays accuracy of both heavy and light flak that seems more in line with today's highly trained air defense troops than with an average WWII-era emplacement.

It also doesn't apply to say ship accuracy (unless something has changed recently) a German U-boat with it's 20mm gun can whipe out 10 enemy aircraft without breaking a sweat. It can also chrug off a direct hit from a 500lb bomb. 

[Dragon1-1]

Ships are a well known weakness of DCS. No damage modeling, limited functionality, and limited AI. The U-boat is probably using AI designed for modern ship CIWS. IRL, they just dove ASAP, the subs' AA guns on either side are well known to have been completely useless. At least the deck gun was of occasionally of some use.

[upyr1]

I'd also toss in that I don't think DCS models fear and suppression. There should be a chance that a ground unit won't shoot at you at least when things start going boom. 

[draconus]

18 hours ago, upyr1 said:

I'd also toss in that I don't think DCS models fear and suppression.

There is something for aircraft. Ex. you may find the wingman retreat when his lead blows up.

[upyr1]

21 hours ago, draconus said:

There is something for aircraft. Ex. you may find the wingman retreat when his lead blows up.

It needs to be added to ground units

[Tom P]

Agreed AI logic and accuracy needs a rework. It's actually a topic in my next video.

I fly helicopters too and yeah you have to question how an AK is hitting me outside their max effective range. 

I also I did a gun run in a viper at 600 knots and a dude with an AK took out my radio when I was only near them for less then a second.

[Ignition]

I've been asking for an accuracy configuration of the group, it would make groups firing at each other more cinematic. Right now you need to do an attack position and it looks artificial.

Also it would make ground battles to last longer.