fixed internally Clarification on A-10 Use at Spangdahlem

[Snoopy]

@MAESTR0

Not sure about other bases (haven't checked them yet) but Spang has the incorrect HAS model and can't fit A-10s and you can't set any of the ramp locations for AI A-10s to start from (glad we have a work around for player/client aicraft).  They should use the same model as the hotel and india loop at Incirlik AB that A-10s can fit in.

 Links to see HASs at Spang:

https://www.spangdahlem.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/293803/81st-fs-inactivation-announced/

https://www.spangdahlem.af.mil/News/Photos/igphoto/2001013339/

https://www.spangdahlem.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/295077/crew-chiefs-keep-a-10s-soaring/

https://www.spangdahlem.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/295167/six-ship-a-10-formation-simulates-flying-to-aor/

https://www.spangdahlem.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/295493/a-10-arrival-and-departure/

https://www.spangdahlem.af.mil/News/Photos/igphoto/2000561572/

Edited April 19 by Snoopy
Corrected reason

[Ramses823]

Yes please do fix this as being able to fly out of Spangdahlem was a big buying point for me being that Spangdahlem was a historic base for A-10 operations...

[Snoopy]

[Northstar98]

Yeah, western side of the airbase has larger hardened shelters to accommodate the A-10. The eastern side has smaller HASs, more appropriate to F-16-sized aircraft.

[Snoopy]

2 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

Yeah, western side of the airbase has larger hardened shelters to accommodate the A-10. The eastern side has smaller HASs, more appropriate to F-16-sized aircraft.

Yeah a quick google earth view and it’s easy to tell which ones are larger 

[western_JPN]

ah ... how about the YEAR of the map module ? 
This is Cold War Germany map --- focusing 1980s. 

A-10's moving to Spangdahlem was 1993 or 1994 .... after German reunification, wasn't it ? 

I'm not sure when western area hangers were built in bigger size .... already in 1980s ? 

[Northstar98]

From 1985:

Looks like the same shelters.

Edited April 18 by Northstar98
Hangars -> shelters

[Snoopy]

41 minutes ago, western_JPN said:

ah ... how about the YEAR of the map module ? 
This is Cold War Germany map --- focusing 1980s. 

A-10's moving to Spangdahlem was 1993 or 1994 .... after German reunification, wasn't it ? 

I'm not sure when western area hangers were built in bigger size .... already in 1980s ? 

They didn't build new HASs for the A-10s but thanks for playing LOL

38 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

From 1985:

Looks like the same hangars.

Correct and thanks for the picture.  Marked as correct as is so guess we're stuck with what we got.

[Alpiinoo]

Agree with that, Spangdahlem uses larger HAS. 

[Ramses823]

I’d like to respectfully offer a different perspective regarding A-10 operations out of Spangdahlem during the Cold War timeframe.

From all the research I’ve done, A-10s were stationed at Spangdahlem starting in the late 1970s, with units like the 81st Tactical Fighter Wing operating the A-10A well before the 1980s. Spangdahlem was an important base for NATO’s Cold War strategy, and A-10 operations there were a critical part of the defensive posture for West Germany.

I understand the intention behind the map’s time period and design choices, but I do feel it’s important to represent that part of history accurately. Historically, shelters capable of housing A-10s did exist once the aircraft were operating there.

As someone who primarily flies the A-10 in DCS, it’s honestly disappointing not to be able to fly out of Spangdahlem, knowing how significant that location was for A-10 operations during the Cold War. I completely respect the effort and attention that went into building the map, but I do hope this aspect might be reconsidered —  in a future update.

I say all of this with complete respect for the developers and the hard work they’ve put into the project. 

[sith1144]

The 81st TFS became an A-10 squadron in 1994. They operated F4 phantoms before the 88s and got partial F-16s in 1988. As far as I've been able to find, A-10s operated from Sembach, Leipheim, Ahlhorn, Norvenich as forward bases with the actual home base in Britain.

Per USAFE, a primer of modern air combat in Europe by Michael Skinner, 1983 (which should not be taken af a definitive source but is simply the book I was looking at this past week) 

The 78th, 91st, 92nd, 509th, 510th, and 511th fighter squadrons of the 81st TFW (TFW and TFS may have lead to confusion) flew the A-10 out of the twin bases RAF Bentwaters and Woodbridge. At least a third of the wing was deployed to forward bases mentioned above.

Edited April 19 by sith1144
Sources and typo correction

[Ramses823]

46 minutes ago, sith1144 said:

The 81st TFS became an A-10 squadron in 1994. They operated F4 phantoms before the 88s and got partial F-16s in 1988. As far as I've been able to find, A-10s operated from Sembach, Leipheim, Ahlhorn, Norvenich as forward bases with the actual home base in Britain.

Per USAFE, a primer of modern air combat in Europe by Michael Skinner, 1983 (which should not be taken af a definitive source but is simply the book I was looking at this past week) 

The 78th, 91st, 92nd, 509th, 510th, and 511th fighter squadrons of the 81st TFW (TFW and TFS may have lead to confusion) flew the A-10 out of the twin bases RAF Bentwaters and Woodbridge. At least a third of the wing was deployed to forward bases mentioned above.

I can't argue with the truth upon further reading you're absolutely right. They were stationed at Spangdahlem in 1973 and went from F-16s to the A-10 in 1994... I understand not changing the shelters but It would be nice if we could use the ramp at Spangdahlem for A-10 operations.

[Snoopy]

People need to stop focusing on the A-10 and the fact that the HAS on the western part of the airfield are to small.  Yes I referenced the A-10 not fitting in my bug report but it is more about the HAS being to small and used the A-10 as a reference.  

[Snoopy]

f-4 reference showing the HAS on the western part of Spang are to small.

instead of focusing on the A-10 let’s focus on the HAS not being the correct size.

 

[Alpiinoo]

1983

They have both of them.

1985 with fake bomb crater

1989

 

But you as you can see in 1983 they have some bigger HAS some part of base.

Edited April 19 by Alpiinoo

[Bremspropeller]

8 hours ago, Ramses823 said:

I can't argue with the truth upon further reading you're absolutely right. They were stationed at Spangdahlem in 1973 and went from F-16s to the A-10 in 1994... I understand not changing the shelters but It would be nice if we could use the ramp at Spangdahlem for A-10 operations.

You can use it for now by using "take off from ground" instead of "take off from ramp" and placing the jets on the ramp or on open spots or helo spawns. There are two hangars in which you can fit the A-10 inside and pretend you're starting in a shelter, but you'll also have to place it there by using "take off from ground". Also, there's a couple of positions where you can put the aircraft in front of a shelter.

It's a bit of a bummer that the shelters are literally one size too small, but the base is workable.

[sirrah]

7 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

You can use it for now by using "take off from ground" instead of "take off from ramp" and placing the jets on the ramp or on open spots or helo spawns. There are two hangars in which you can fit the A-10 inside and pretend you're starting in a shelter, but you'll also have to place it there by using "take off from ground". Also, there's a couple of positions where you can put the aircraft in front of a shelter.

It's a bit of a bummer that the shelters are literally one size too small, but the base is workable.

That unfortunately isn't a solution for AI

In the end, not being able to recreate A-10 flights starting from Spangdahlem, is just silly and I'm sure @MAESTR0 will inform the team on this issue

[Bremspropeller]

14 minutes ago, sirrah said:

That unfortunately isn't a solution for AI

That's a good point. Does "take off from runway" not work either then?

Not saying it's optimal, just trying to find a workable solution for the time being.

[sirrah]

19 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

That's a good point. Does "take off from runway" not work either then?

Not saying it's optimal, just trying to find a workable solution for the time being.

Sure, that would work for AI

just very unrealistic/immersion breaking imo

 

[trippylummox]

10 hours ago, Snoopy said:

People need to stop focusing on the A-10 and the fact that the HAS on the western part of the airfield are to small.  Yes I referenced the A-10 not fitting in my bug report but it is more about the HAS being to small and used the A-10 as a reference.  

I just wanted to throw my hat in on this one.  I was stationed at Spangdahlem from 2006-2014, and a member of the 81st.  The A-10's should fit snugly into the HAS's there(a few feet of clearance from either wingtip).  We did not modify them at all(they were the larger gen III's).  We used the shelters on the western portion of the airfield.

Also, I'm curious about the elevation data for Spang.  It was an airfield that was not flat at all, lol, we had to climb uphill from our parking spots on the way to the 23 EOR.  I figure there will be adjustments as the map progress develops.

So far, I am really digging it though!

Edited April 19 by trippylummox

[Snoopy]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

You can use it for now by using "take off from ground" instead of "take off from ramp" and placing the jets on the ramp or on open spots or helo spawns. There are two hangars in which you can fit the A-10 inside and pretend you're starting in a shelter, but you'll also have to place it there by using "take off from ground". Also, there's a couple of positions where you can put the aircraft in front of a shelter.

It's a bit of a bummer that the shelters are literally one size too small, but the base is workable.

Well aware of that but doesn’t fix the fact the HAS is to small from what they actually are.

[MAESTR0]

A different type of shelter was installed on the western part of the airfield. This has now been fixed. Soon you will be able to start flying the A-10 in a shelter without getting wet in the rain.
Developer's night screenshot:

In the meantime, your squadron is being transferred to Sembach. 

[Wing]

2 hours ago, MAESTR0 said:

A different type of shelter was installed on the western part of the airfield. This has now been fixed. Soon you will be able to start flying the A-10 in a shelter without getting wet in the rain.
Developer's night screenshot:

In the meantime, your squadron is being transferred to Sembach. 

Outstanding. Thankyou!!

[Ramses823]

2 hours ago, MAESTR0 said:

A different type of shelter was installed on the western part of the airfield. This has now been fixed. Soon you will be able to start flying the A-10 in a shelter without getting wet in the rain.
Developer's night screenshot:

In the meantime, your squadron is being transferred to Sembach. 

Thanks  

[ST0RM]

Slightly OT, but A-10 centric. Let's not forget that the 81st TFW (Woodbridge) frequently used Sembach as a FOL.