Cockpit hardware or VR?

[Linition]

Seeing as you can't comfortably use both at the same time, what route do people go and why?

[speed-of-heat]

What makes you think this? I use mine all the time in VR, it doesn't even have to be a 1 to 1 representation of the aircraft cockpit you are flying ... you just need to train your muscle memory. I have some buttons to help with centring for things like the ICP/UFC/MFD's ... 

[mkel2010]

2 hours ago, speed-of-heat said:

What makes you think this? I use mine all the time in VR, it doesn't even have to be a 1 to 1 representation of the aircraft cockpit you are flying ... you just need to train your muscle memory. I have some buttons to help with centring for things like the ICP/UFC/MFD's ... 

Who makes the stand that you're using?

[speed-of-heat]

Wheelstand Wheel Stand Pro for Thrustmaster HOTAS WARTHOG™, Saitek X-55, X52/Pro, X65 - Deluxe V2 - WheelStandPro I added a a cuto of 20 x60  alluminum profile to the top for the mounting process and i asked them for a reduced size mounting plate for the side stick , which i think cost about 50 euros or so 

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

I use both as well. Sure, being able to see what your hand is doing certainly helps, but after a while you get a sense of where everything is and can manipulate switches, knobs and levers blind just fine.

[BluesRocket]

I use both now that I have hands passthrough in Virtual Desktop (see specs). It allows me to easily use a keyboard, grab the mouse or use the F-16 ICP panel (WinWIng). The hands passthrough is just slightly larger than your hand, so USUALLY it doesn't impair access to VR cockpit controls. I have more problems with finding the mouse cursor in VR than anything else...

[Mr_sukebe]

+1

I use both. It’s a bit like touch typing.  You quickly learn where controls are.

its part of the reason that most control panels use different types of buttons and switches.

The exception vein items like the Thrustmaster MFDs.  For those, I use small velcro blobs

[Steel Jaw]

43 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

The exception vein items like the Thrustmaster MFDs.  For those, I use small velcro blobs

Same.

[Linition]

14 hours ago, speed-of-heat said:

What makes you think this? I use mine all the time in VR, it doesn't even have to be a 1 to 1 representation of the aircraft cockpit you are flying ... you just need to train your muscle memory. I have some buttons to help with centring for things like the ICP/UFC/MFD's ... 

But then you are using all that stuff blind and out of synch with where you are looking. 
Seems as much as immersion booster as an immersion killer to me.

Ok so using both is still the most immersive solution then?

Too bad they cannibalize each other like that. I hope someone comes up with a solution for that.

Edited July 5 by Linition

[speed-of-heat]

2 hours ago, Linition said:

But then you are using all that stuff blind and out of synch with where you are looking. 
Seems as much as immersion booster as an immersion killer to me.

Ok so using both is still the most immersive solution then?

Too bad they cannibalize each other like that. I hope someone comes up with a solution for that.

It doesn't kill  immersion for me... I find it as natural as not looking at my HOTAS which doesn't  have 1 for 1 bindings with every jet/warbird/helo either... I think you are over thinking this, and sure if it doesn't work for you then it doesn't... But if you put in the work it could.

Also just an observation most actual pilots don't tend to look at controls they use, when they know where they are they just tend to use them by reaching... 

[Linition]

4 hours ago, speed-of-heat said:

It doesn't kill  immersion for me... I find it as natural as not looking at my HOTAS which doesn't  have 1 for 1 bindings with every jet/warbird/helo either... I think you are over thinking this, and sure if it doesn't work for you then it doesn't... But if you put in the work it could.

Also just an observation most actual pilots don't tend to look at controls they use, when they know where they are they just tend to use them by reaching... 

I would just like it to work together better, especially for that kind of money. 
I have seen someone use the knobs and switches in the virtual cockpit by picking up those weird location tracker sticks, but that also seems awkward. 
Maybe one day they manage to implement support for haptic gloves, though maybe what bothers me the most about this setup is how after buying those really cool cockpit pieces I don't even get to look at them and read off of them, but instead less-nice-looking virtual versions on my VR screen. 

[speed-of-heat]

8 minutes ago, Linition said:

I would just like it to work together better, especially for that kind of money. 
I have seen someone use the knobs and switches in the virtual cockpit by picking up those weird location tracker sticks, but that also seems awkward. 
Maybe one day they manage to implement support for haptic gloves, though maybe what bothers me the most about this setup is how after buying those really cool cockpit pieces I don't even get to look at them and read off of them, but instead less-nice-looking virtual versions on my VR screen. 

as i said agree to disagree... if it doesn't work for you , it doesn't , but again you are over thinking it ... 

[Nightdare]

The only way to translate IRL<->VR, is get a 1:1 cockpit, see the Warthog Project to know how much that costs

Or make IRL VR by something as Pointclick, where you simulate manipulating buttons and switches

 

39 minutes ago, Linition said:

I would just like it to work together better, especially for that kind of money. 

You want the square peg to fit the round hole

Even Pancake players have to get used to peripherals, put a player in a dogfight with a fresh button box with key functions and he WILL screw up

 

Hardware + VR =

[Linition]

48 minutes ago, Nightdare said:

The only way to translate IRL<->VR, is get a 1:1 cockpit, see the Warthog Project to know how much that costs

Or make IRL VR by something as Pointclick, where you simulate manipulating buttons and switches

 

You want the square peg to fit the round hole

Even Pancake players have to get used to peripherals, put a player in a dogfight with a fresh button box with key functions and he WILL screw up

 

Hardware + VR =

VR already is a square peg people use to stick into the round hole of control panels, it seems to me. 
Things only get improved when there are people who don't remain satisfied with the status quo. 

What's a pancake player?

[Nightdare]

28 minutes ago, Linition said:

VR already is a square peg people use to stick into the round hole of control panels, it seems to me. 

First off, that's a flawed assumption, VR let's you see the cockpit in 3d as any Flightsim player desired since 1985

It does exactly as advertised

 

But you are asking for a way to translate movement in VR to RL without any trouble

This is only possible if things are 1:1 

 

28 minutes ago, Linition said:

Things only get improved when there are people who don't remain satisfied with the status quo. 

 

What do you suggest, apart from modular button boxes that can easily be reconfigured to the module your playing?

(still have to be 1:1 though)

 

I gave you an example of not being satisfied with the Status Quo, and that's the Warthog Project

Which is built without VR in mind, but very much applicable, but already way beyond $10K in peripherals,... and as DIY has a s a lot of savings on labor

 

You want your cake and eat it too

 

28 minutes ago, Linition said:

What's a pancake player?

Pancake: Monitor

Beer Goggles: VR Headset 

[Draken35]

9 hours ago, Linition said:

But then you are using all that stuff blind and out of synch with where you are looking. 

I fly only in VR, multiple fixed and rotary wing aircraft and I do not have a 1 to 1 setup. I use a simpit and hand controllers and it is very comfortable! The JetSeat even give me massages!

Simpit buttons and switches are used when I am NOT looking, while the hand controllers when I'm looking. Zero immersion kill for me. 

A 1 to 1 setup would be cool but I do not have the space or the money to make one for every module I fly...And it would be easier to list the ones I don't: I-16, MiG-19 and Christen Eagle.

At the end of the day, do what is best for you.
 

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

10 minutes ago, Draken35 said:

A 1 to 1 setup would be cool but I do not have the space or the money to make one for every module I fly...

 

This, so much this. Monday I flew the Huey. Tuesday the Hind. Friday Harrier. This weekend is the Viper.
Who thinks the only proper way is building an operative, 1:1 cockpit for every module????

Not to mention the same VR headset allows for FS2020 and simracing as well. For $400 aprox.

There is no posible debate. I have friends who don´t fly, just soldering and resoldering and uploading sketches to Arduino, then mountin panels, then dismounting them because 2 out fo 6 switches don´t work... 

[Draken35]

I even switch aircrafts in the same session! Moving the throttle assembly to the side and bring up the collective assembly it the only thing I change when switching wing types

[Linition]

Hmm, I wonder if there are ways to make an AR/VR hybrid where you put markers on your MFDs the glasses can recognize and phase out the game picture in those spots to let you see your actual cockpit.

[SharpeXB]

I don’t use VR but I gotta say the full build cockpit thing is something I can’t see ever doing. If you replicate this full on cockpit for a particular aircraft what about flying different ones? Part of the experience here is interacting with the 3D Cockpit in the sim IMO. Plus it would be downright confusing to map like an AH-64 or M-2000 controls to an F-18 cockpit etc. In VR even more so it would seem.

[Draken35]

1 hour ago, Linition said:

Hmm, I wonder if there are ways to make an AR/VR hybrid where you put markers on your MFDs the glasses can recognize and phase out the game picture in those spots to let you see your actual cockpit.

That's called mixed reality and it is indeed a possibility ... I tested it briefly and found that, for me, it doesn't bring much to the table and it did break my immersion... But, with a 1 to 1 cockpit and the proper environment it would work (for me, I think)...

I also tested hand tracking with and without PointCtrl and found, that for me, it required either no devices around or that the bare minimum (stick and throttle) were set in a 1 to 1 configuration, because, if they aren't, they will get in the way to operate the virtual buttons, levers or switches... Of course if I only flight one aircraft, that would be relatively easy to accomplish, but it is really difficult when flying two or more.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t use VR but I gotta say the full build cockpit thing is something I can’t see ever doing. If you replicate this full on cockpit for a particular aircraft what about flying different ones? Part of the experience here is interacting with the 3D Cockpit in the sim IMO. Plus it would be downright confusing to map like an AH-64 or M-2000 controls to an F-18 cockpit etc. In VR even more so it would seem.

For you, perhaps, not for me, and, I'm sure we both will find other fellows that agree with either (or none!) of us.
How we experience DCS and how we expect it to entertain us is a very personal experience. YMMV

Edited July 5 by Draken35

[Nightdare]

49 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Plus it would be downright confusing to map like an AH-64 or M-2000 controls to an F-18 cockpit etc. In VR even more so it would seem.

I have the WW F-18 UFC

I have the Harrier, not 1:1, but most functions are there at least

 

....But it also doubles as the ACM/Display/Nav panels for the F-14, it also doubles to control the lighting for the Spitfire,, even more for the functions on the top dash of the Mozzy, it also doubles for controlling the HDU for the Apache

 

Mind: I never said I owned the F-18, I don't, yet there I am, using "its" UFC even on Archaic Warbirds

[Mr_sukebe]

With some of the above posts, I do wonder how some drive a car successfully.  Do you have to look at the gear lever to change gear, the wiper stalks to use them?

[SharpeXB]

30 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

With some of the above posts, I do wonder how some drive a car successfully.  Do you have to look at the gear lever to change gear, the wiper stalks to use them?

Oh there’s a value to physical controls. Like a HOTAS. But having the entire cockpit replicated? Yeah it’s cool. For one specific aircraft. What about a Hornet compared to a Phantom? There’s hardly anything similar there at all. Plus I get a kick out of using the realistic cockpit in the game, heck those are DCS’s best feature. And it is rather silly that all these high end controls try to replicate a specific real aircraft. I wouldn’t have a good use for all those switches on the throttle that are really just used for startup. And fun fact the cockpit in the game has all those displays for you to look at too. Why have those on your desk? That gear is all very nice but I can’t see a use for it myself. If I was using VR I think my choice to interact with the cockpit would be a trackball. The idea of blindly groping around for controls that don’t match what you see in VR doesn’t seem appealing. 

[Mr_sukebe]

2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Oh there’s a value to physical controls. Like a HOTAS. But having the entire cockpit replicated? Yeah it’s cool. For one specific aircraft. What about a Hornet compared to a Phantom? There’s hardly anything similar there at all. Plus I get a kick out of using the realistic cockpit in the game, heck those are DCS’s best feature. And it is rather silly that all these high end controls try to replicate a specific real aircraft. I wouldn’t have a good use for all those switches on the throttle that are really just used for startup. And fun fact the cockpit in the game has all those displays for you to look at too. Why have those on your desk? That gear is all very nice but I can’t see a use for it myself. If I was using VR I think my choice to interact with the cockpit would be a trackball. The idea of blindly groping around for controls that don’t match what you see in VR doesn’t seem appealing. 

Sharpe>
I’ll say this once.

Unfortunately, I’ve found so many of your responses to myself or others to be what for me were simply too combative.  

As such, I can’t actually bring myself to read what you’ve written.  Just wanted you to know that I’m not accidentally going to ignore you. It really is deliberate.  Hoping that things improve at your end!