not a bug Trimming Force Feedback Stick and no negative elevator authority.

[Psifire]

Is anyone else having a problem with not having any negative elevator authority?  I can barely get the thing to put it's nose down.  Stick is showing shoved full forward and It's barely lowering it's nose.  Seems worse at higher speeds, but it's doing it at all speeds.  Am I missing an automatic setting somewhere?  Also trim controls don't seem to be working correctly with Force Feedback sticks.  I can see that I am pushing the trim hat forward on the virtual stick, but I'm feeling the forces trim right.  Took me forever to be able to get the stick centered with the controls crossed.  It feels like the forces might be rotated 90 degrees?  

Sidewinder FF 2

[AeriaGloria]

This is normal for low to medium altitude and medium to high speeds, and is made worse the higher your engine setting 

It just has low negative elevator deflection, stick moves half as far away from you as towards you. 
 

The manual has many warnings that with enough weight on wings, you might not be able to full stop pitch up with stick. 
 

And that increasing throttle causes pitch up. 
 

So when it happens, decrease throttle, hold trim, or slow down 

[Psifire]

Yikes, wow, that's an actual flight characteristic?  I thought this thing was supposed to be nimble?  Having almost no authority in half of one of it's primary control axis is not something I would expect in a nimble fighter.  At least I don't have to worry about redouts, Mig-29 doesn't have enough negative nose authority to cause one I guess.  Not marking solved because I still think there is something wonky with FF and trim forces, at least with my Sidewinder FF2.

[Psifire]

Ok, so not as extreme as I thought at first.  Went out with reduced fuel and was able to Redout pretty easily, the problem seems most extreme when I was starting in the air with 100% fuel.  Still feels like it doesn't have enough nose down force, but I've never flown a Mig-29 so what do I know.

[AeriaGloria]

11 minutes ago, Psifire said:

Ok, so not as extreme as I thought at first.  Went out with reduced fuel and was able to Redout pretty easily, the problem seems most extreme when I was starting in the air with 100% fuel.  Still feels like it doesn't have enough nose down force, but I've never flown a Mig-29 so what do I know.

Well you also have to remember MiG-29 has an ARU system, so deflection might be decreased by more then 50% at certain points 

[Ivandrov]

3 hours ago, Psifire said:

Yikes, wow, that's an actual flight characteristic?  I thought this thing was supposed to be nimble?  Having almost no authority in half of one of it's primary control axis is not something I would expect in a nimble fighter.  At least I don't have to worry about redouts, Mig-29 doesn't have enough negative nose authority to cause one I guess.  Not marking solved because I still think there is something wonky with FF and trim forces, at least with my Sidewinder FF2.

Almost any fighter will have reduced authority to pull negative G's. They are more dangerous to the human body, and pulling back on the stick takes better advantage of the wing designs.

 

We're also coming into the era of plane designs that are inherently unstable for increased maneuvering ability so that probably has to do with why the control authority is limited in negative G.

Edited 12 hours ago by Ivandrov

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

6 hours ago, Psifire said:

Also trim controls don't seem to be working correctly with Force Feedback sticks.  I can see that I am pushing the trim hat forward on the virtual stick, but I'm feeling the forces trim right

Yes I noticed the same on my Rhino, so it’s not just the MSFFB2.

[Vakarian]

I'm surprised to hear that as on my Rhino (no telemFFB interfering) the trim works like a dream and it's very easy to trim the Fulcrum (unless I'm going mach stupid then it loses the pitch authority and climbs)

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

2 hours ago, Vakarian said:

I'm surprised to hear that as on my Rhino (no telemFFB interfering) the trim works like a dream and it's very easy to trim the Fulcrum (unless I'm going mach stupid then it loses the pitch authority and climbs)

I did some more testing, and I need to clarify my earlier post a bit. After flying around for a while and trimming in pitch for various flight regimes, I find the roll trim to no longer be centred for whatever reason and I need to readjust. I also feel regular uncommanded roll but that could also be caused by the difference in spool up/down speeds of the 2 engines causing a roll momentum.
I'll need to look a bit deeper into how the FCS works, since there's a damper but it doesn't seem to have any authority in the roll channel - unless I'm missing something... 

[Psifire]

7 hours ago, Ivandrov said:

Almost any fighter will have reduced authority to pull negative G's. They are more dangerous to the human body, and pulling back on the stick takes better advantage of the wing designs.

 

We're also coming into the era of plane designs that are inherently unstable for increased maneuvering ability so that probably has to do with why the control authority is limited in negative G.

I've flown just about everything with simulated wings (and put over 100 hours on the unsimulated kind.)  Most aircraft of this era have reduced nose down authority to limit their ability to push negative Gs.  The Mig-29 as simulated has almost zero nose down authority.  It's super weak, way weaker than I would expect.  As simulated it is weak enough that I will have to adjust to a very unusual flight characteristic in order to master the aircraft rather than just relying on skills built up from other aircraft.  I don't mind doing that of course, as long as it is correct for the aircraft and not a bug.

[Esac_mirmidon]

42 minutes ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

I did some more testing, and I need to clarify my earlier post a bit. After flying around for a while and trimming in pitch for various flight regimes, I find the roll trim to no longer be centred for whatever reason and I need to readjust. I also feel regular uncommanded roll but that could also be caused by the difference in spool up/down speeds of the 2 engines causing a roll momentum.
I'll need to look a bit deeper into how the FCS works, since there's a damper but it doesn't seem to have any authority in the roll channel - unless I'm missing something... 

After the AFCS auto check, that moves the stick around, you lose the center trim BOTH on roll and pitch.

Trimming manually until lights are on is not enough for a perfect neutral trim, specially on roll Channel.

 

Use Ctrl+T to reset trim before take off and you should be good to go.

Edited 5 hours ago by Esac_mirmidon

[DD_Fenrir]

If you are using a Force Feedback device and your pitch trim is felt through the roll axis you will need to tick the Swap Axis option in the force feedback sub menu of the Pitch or Roll Axis control in your controls bindings

[Psifire]

1 hour ago, DD_Fenrir said:

If you are using a Force Feedback device and your pitch trim is felt through the roll axis you will need to tick the Swap Axis option in the force feedback sub menu of the Pitch or Roll Axis control in your controls bindings

I swear I've setup over 20 aircraft and never run into this before.  You were correct, this fixed my FF issue.  Trimmer is working correctly now.  
Edit:  After a bit more flight testing this fixed a myriad of problems.  Every time I think I have mastered all the ins and outs of controller setup, I learn something new.

Edited 3 hours ago by Psifire

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

1 hour ago, DD_Fenrir said:

If you are using a Force Feedback device and your pitch trim is felt through the roll axis you will need to tick the Swap Axis option in the force feedback sub menu of the Pitch or Roll Axis control in your controls bindings

For Sidewinders this is a known issue yes for a lot of aircraft in DCS. In my case the trim forces to work as expected, it's just that I loose the roll centre position after only trimming in pitch, which I find odd.

 

1 hour ago, Esac_mirmidon said:

After the AFCS auto check, that moves the stick around, you lose the center trim BOTH on roll and pitch.

I'm aware, but it also happens in air start missions. The light goes out after flying around a while and I need to trim roll to correct.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Try reset trim to start from neutral. 

For me it works, no more unwilling roll displacements to one side